The Longevity Paradox and Work After 45

Renata Bernarde (00:00)
And welcome again to the Job Searching Podcast. I wish to begin right this moment’s episode with one thing that actually caught everybody’s consideration lately. When NASA despatched the crew into area for the Artemis 2 mission, the primary crew mission set to orbit the Moon in over 50 years, what stood out essentially the most to me was that each astronaut chosen was a Era Xer like me.

All of them had been born within the 70s and had been of their 40s and 50s.

When the stakes are excessive, when the mission is de facto vital and IT issues, who can we belief? We belief expertise, we belief judgment, we belief individuals who have seen complexity and know tips on how to navigate IT.

And but within the office we frequently do the other, with sidelined professionals of their 40s, 50s and past on the actual second when their contribution could possibly be at its peak.

That’s what right this moment’s episode is all about. IT’s additionally very well timed for me personally. I’ve simply turn into a grandmother and I’m reflecting on how I wish to work on this subsequent section of my life. What issues to me now? What do I would like my work to appear to be? And the way do I steadiness that what I would like with household, Health and longevity?

it’s possible you’ll be in the same state of affairs. If you happen to’ve been asking your self related questions, this dialog will resonate. At this time, I’m joined by two friends.

Michelle Lemons is the founding father of the Longevity Productiveness Lab and a strategic advisor who has spent over 25 years constructing initiatives throughout sustainability, innovation and transformation. She’s now targeted on what she calls Longevity Paradox, this hole between longer life expectancy and the declining workforce participation after 45.

And Rebecca Corridor brings a deeply private and coverage knowledgeable perspective to our dialog. She’s held senior government roles throughout authorities and schooling for over 30 years. and he or she shares what IT truly appears to be like wish to navigate profession transitions, caregiving duties, and redefining work in midlife.

On this episode we discover why participation drops after 45 though most individuals wish to preserve working, what’s actually driving age bias in recruitment,

how mature professionals can complement AI relatively than compete with IT.

and what wants to alter from people to employers to governments if we wish to construct a workforce that displays the truth of longer lives.

We additionally get very sensible. speak about what to do for those who’re over 45 and going through redundancy, how do we predict your profession, and tips on how to strategy this subsequent stage with readability and confidence.

This is a crucial dialog as a result of this isn’t a distinct segment concern. IT’s the way forward for work. And if after listening to this episode, you’re feeling such as you want assist navigating this stage of your profession and life, you may study extra about working with me as your coach on my web site. There’s a hyperlink within the present notes or you may go now to renatabernarde.com. That’s R-E-N-A-T-A-B-E-R-N-A-R-D-E.com.

And for those who’d like Michelle and Rebecca to talk to your group, your authorities or your business affiliation, you will discover hyperlinks beneath to attach with them. Let’s get into IT.

Renata Bernarde (03:57)
proper, how are we feeling? Are we prepared to speak about longevity?

Michele (04:00)
We’re.

Rebecca (04:02)
We’re, sure.

Renata Bernarde (04:04)
Good,

good. So I’m going to depart IT as much as you as to who desires to go first, however I would like any person to elucidate to me what longevity economic system paradox is.

Michele (04:16)
Fantastic. Let me take that one. In order that’s a fantastic query, Renata. I wish to take this in a few components after which glue IT again collectively once more. So Treasury discuss concerning the three P’s that assist our economic system prosper. We speak about inhabitants, participation and productiveness. And so everybody would clearly perceive and agree that development of the economic system is fairly crucial for us for the longer term. And rising productiveness is a crucial lever to attain that.

Renata Bernarde (04:20)
Okay.

Michele (04:46)
Australia is fairly targeted on that proper now as properly. The half we don’t appear to be doing so properly in is wanting on the impression of the getting older inhabitants, each from a employee availability and likewise employee utilization. And so what we’re proposing is that we have to higher harness the mature work inhabitants. And in Australia, for instance, that’s anybody over 45 from a definition. And so we’re caught utilizing an outdated lens.

that doesn’t replicate right this moment’s actuality. And IT reveals that our participation is dropping. So what’s the paradox now that I’ve lined inhabitants and productiveness? The paradox is we’re residing longer, more healthy lives. Sadly, the participation within the workforce seems to be falling from the mid 40s onwards. So we discuss lifespan, we discuss Health span, we discuss high quality of life. However what about work span?

And in order that pure longer lives must translate to longer work spans as properly. And lots of wish to work, must work, however typically can’t get entry to difficult and significant roles. And actually, the systemic challenges that we have to result in haven’t been properly acknowledged and we have to catch up. You’d suppose in an age the place this has been coming for a while, we’d be ready.

And but on the entire, we haven’t caught up. And that’s each as people, as corporates and governments. And that basic rethink is one thing that’s actually vital and therefore the paradox paper that we’ve put ahead to give attention to IT.

Renata Bernarde (06:29)
⁓ I’ve learn from the paperwork you each despatched me and another experiences that the declining participation begins across the age 45. ⁓ What’s driving that drop off? Is IT as a result of folks don’t have the abilities to do the work or is IT as a result of the employers usually are not acknowledging that

Rebecca (06:30)
Thank

Renata Bernarde (06:59)
these individuals are nonetheless productive and prepared for Jobs.

Rebecca (07:04)
Possibly I’ll soar in there first, Renata, simply with somebody who I really feel, you from my lived expertise of residing the paradox ⁓ and a number of the drivers, after which I’ll hand again to Michelle ⁓ on the stats round IT. However at 49, I used to be in my dream job. ⁓ you the job that I’d spent my complete profession looking for, and I needed to stroll away. And I walked away due to I used to be turning into grandmother at a time that I

hadn’t actually deliberate to, however very excited to be a grandmother. I had caring duties for my mother and father, each my mother and father who had been aged, and I couldn’t do the position, the scale of the position or the kind of the position that I wished to do. And so quick ahead ⁓ to 2 years, ⁓ actually firstly linked with Michelle ⁓ within the advisory work round what is that this longevity paradox and the way is IT taking part in out and what are the drivers in the direction of IT? ⁓

For me, IT truly made me form of rethink, hey, I’ve spent all my profession transferring in the direction of this purpose, this place, this title, and really that’s not what I actually need. ⁓ Additionally, I’ve one other 20 years forward of me within the workforce and I wanna guarantee that that point spent is properly spent if I’m making sacrifices or selections in balancing household and different duties.

I’m most likely a textbook case round, you already know, undoubtedly maintaining with my expertise and maintaining with, you already know, roles and engagement, however these different elements that I hadn’t absolutely thought of ⁓ in life. And I used to be a type of individuals who was very shocked when Michelle stated, sure, you’re recognized as a mature age employee. That simply didn’t land with my view of myself, but in addition with what I feel I’ve and lots of of my friends must contribute to the workforce for a few years ahead.

Michele (08:49)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (09:02)
Wow. Okay. Sure, I, I, hundred % relate with, ⁓ your expertise. I additionally really feel like partly I left my company profession to have extra flexibility and I’m about to turn into a grandmother. So I, I’ve already began scuffling with, ⁓ the must be entrepreneurial in my very own enterprise and the willingness to assist my son and my daughter-in-law with.

with the infant. I would like to listen to extra about how you might be dealing with IT all. Michelle, do you wish to add one thing?

Michele (09:40)
Yeah, let me, and that’s nice to listen to that story, Rebecca, as a result of I feel IT’s totally different for each one in every of us. The info reveals a really clear story. IT reveals that participation is peaking across the mid 40s after which begins falling. So every then 5 yr chunk, we see issues progressively lowering. So by the point that we’re acquired 55 to 59 ish, we’re round 10 share factors decrease in foundation.

So as a substitute of being across the 90 % or 89%, we’re at 78 % participation. And so that you requested why. And I feel a number of the issues we perceive, and that makes IT simpler to behave, however a number of the issues we have to higher perceive. We see a proportion of employees who’re financially safe sufficient to retire early. And congratulations to them. Discovering what’s going to interact them for one more 30 or 40 years, I feel,

probably a distinct kind of issues. However many are retiring sooner than they supposed. And that’s partially on account of roles not being out there. So a number of the issues that you just see, we’ve talked about extra flexibility. That’s definitely one in every of them.

There’s Australia does have fairly sturdy ageism and that additionally exists in lots of different societies. However that bias is translating, particularly with the rise of AI to being fairly a powerful tech bias as properly. This notion {that a} extra mature employee isn’t updated with the most recent Technology.

I feel you’ll discover many analysis and we’ll most likely go into this later the place we speak about AI and the knowledge and data and crystallized intelligence that it’s good to make AI profitable is extra readily present in a mature grownup employee. Among the different issues I feel is we’re nonetheless on an outdated mannequin of a single profession path all over. If I’ve performed advertising, then I’m going to proceed up the advertising ladder and that’s what I’m going to do. Or if I’ve performed nursing or development or

And the thought now of getting a profession or a number of careers all through your lifetime is one thing that we get to evolve to the place you would possibly do a profession for 10 years, then you definately would possibly do one other and one other and so forth. As a result of our capability, particularly in a blue or pink collar employee surroundings, to proceed doing a number of the work that’s onerous in your physique and difficult in your physique wants a distinct strategy to profession paths.

There’s additionally a little bit of a mismatch of worth expectations, I feel. You understand, once more, we’ve come up via a way more conventional mannequin the place you progress, you get extra wage, you get a better place. And as soon as we’ve acquired to a mid-stage, there are solely so many larger positions above that. And so how can we realign our personal private expectations of working, of contributing, of discovering objective, alongside truly probably a decrease wage or a distinct wage to those that we’ve been anticipating?

Renata Bernarde (12:40)
Mm.

Michele (12:41)
Different couple that I’ll throw in, I feel the rigid job design. We spent a variety of time designing for the youthful gen, then the technology who’re busy producing new youngsters, which was fantastic for our economic system. However redesign of Jobs for a extra mature workforce which have totally different wants has definitely not been there and we don’t measure this. In order I stated of corporates as authorities necessities and obligatory reporting.

We don’t seize all the employees and what’s taking place to them. And due to this fact we’ve acquired a scarcity of knowledge to assist inform these subsequent steps. And so these are a couple of of the issues which are exhibiting that we all know that we have to work. Properly, truly many are beginning to see that we have to work longer, however these pathways are nonetheless fairly underdeveloped when it comes to how we’d evolve the place we have to retrain and reskill. Hopefully that provides you a few new concepts.

Renata Bernarde (13:37)
Sure, IT’s very fascinating as a result of IT’s far more advanced than simply the phrase ageism, ⁓ the definition and the totally different conditions. And I hadn’t thought of IT from a coverage perspective, from the shortage of flexibility for extra mature professionals. ⁓ these…

Michele (13:44)
Completely.

We don’t even, sorry

to leap in and relapse, we don’t even for almost all of organizations, age isn’t even a part of the variety DEI sort platform. So we cater for each different degree of variety, however most firms insurance policies wouldn’t have age as a part of the material that they put throughout their group right this moment.

Renata Bernarde (14:22)
Sure. ⁓ Have you ever ⁓ interviewed people which have skilled ageism when going into recruitment and choice course of and what do they let you know?

Michele (14:36)
Look, I feel we are going to all have many, many mates, ⁓ sadly, who’re in that state of affairs of getting been launched from work, discovered IT discovering that IT is aware of their values and what they wish to obtain and a corporation doesn’t align with that group anymore. And so I feel the largest frustration for these people is they’ll’t get via to indicate their worth. To allow them to’t get via that strategy of recruitment.

they’re reduce off on the AI matching, or they’re reduce off by the, let’s assume, the youthful recruiters who are sometimes doing that first degree of scanning. And what we’re doing is de facto asking these younger recruiters to evaluate any person who’s truly their mother and father’ age.

and IT’s not one thing that they’re used to doing. And they also deliver all of these perceptions and preconditions with them as properly. I feel the opposite factor is organizations are making judgment calls early on about what would possibly curiosity any person.

And so you’ll typically hear this overqualified or this may not curiosity you long term. And truly we discover the loyalty of ⁓ older employees, extra mature employees, and likewise their curiosity in contributing extra than simply the job expertise which are required for that job ⁓ is far higher, whether or not that be in mentoring and lots of different issues. the suggestions ⁓ may be very sturdy that they’ll’t even get to the interviews.

Renata Bernarde (16:06)
Sure. So, ⁓ Michelle, have you ever been searching for work or Rebecca, both of you? Inform me about your private expertise.

Rebecca (16:16)
Properly, I’ll kick off first if you would like. I I so I’ve left two Jobs truly left, left two roles due to totally different caring duties after which ⁓ needed to search new alternatives and new employment. So I left a full time public service position and I’m now ⁓ working in authorities relations. So working now with.

Renata Bernarde (16:19)
Sure.

Rebecca (16:43)
an schooling organisation. I, and I listened to your podcast a bit Renata, I definitely one, ⁓ you already know, needed to make a daring and fast choice, which wasn’t about my profession. was about my, my household and my, my caring. However secondly, then when, okay, what, what’s going to work for, for me? And a part of that’s I’ve gone half time. ⁓ I’m in, in a task, which is adjoining to my regular

job, so not main a group of public servants inside authorities, however working outdoors authorities to assist form and affect coverage. So I really feel very, very lucky to have been in a position to create that. And likewise alongside this, this undertaking with Michelle was one in every of my ardour tasks the place I used to be desirous about contributing my coverage data and schooling data.

into one thing that I didn’t know what the longevity paradox was till I began studying extra deeply and understanding IT. So I’m an instance of in searching for that subsequent job and discovering one thing now. I additionally went, IT’s not simply the job, IT’s truly the opposite issues round IT. The place can I volunteer? The place can I join with like-minded folks? The place can I make a distinction? And I feel that additionally, that is undoubtedly my private expertise as properly of

If you happen to’re searching for all of that in your job, ⁓ you could be sadly disenchanted. So yeah, I’m in a position to work part-time. I’m caring for my dad. I’ve picked up some analysis that I began 14 years in the past. So by no means too late to select one thing again up and, you already know, connecting with actually sensible folks like Michelle and others who’re interested by a few of these elements. And I’ll simply form of wrap IT into say, we had been simply speaking about

ageism and longevity at that finish. I feel there’s, we additionally know there’s an even bigger dialog round intergenerational ⁓ fairness and equity and the chance for us to not be coming at this simply from, take a look at us, we’re on this 50 to 70 age group, however truly how we participating with these? And my daughter is one instance who’s doing a variety of work in ⁓

intergenerational equity and how we truly work extra cohesively to create a greater future.

Renata Bernarde (19:12)
Okay, no, that’s so nice. What about you, Michelle?

Michele (19:17)
So look, Rebecca is an excellent instance of any person stepping right into a portfolio profession, whether or not IT was instantly intentional or not directly simply primarily based in your curiosity, Rebecca, however IT’s definitely evolving into that. For me personally, I had began wanting into longevity about 18 months in the past. And for me, I like working at systemic change finish. I’ve been

rising my focus round societal and other people associated modifications following on from spending about seven and a half years in sustainability and earlier than that enterprise transformation. And what I discovered is after I was wanting into this on a private foundation, there was a lot work that wanted to be performed. We have to rethink so a lot of our techniques which are antiquated and primarily based on an outdated mannequin that simply doesn’t exist. You understand, we speak about

the change that’s coming from an getting older inhabitants, IT’s right here. And so after I got here again to Australia, I used to be nonetheless ending off some duties, however I had a chance to go on lengthy service go away with the group that I used to be with. And I used to be about to do this and give attention to this. After which I simply, possibly I bit the bullet and went, let’s again myself. So my full-time job is definitely discovering a solution to get a voice for…

longevity and rising mature work participation of the 45 to 65 yr olds. I feel IT’s a crucial concern. And all people that I meet with, and I’m assembly with authorities with chairs with NEDs with CXO CEOs, all people agrees IT’s vital. The challenges we have to discover this make away to show this to be an pressing downside.

And so for the time being, that is very a lot my full-time job, very similar to I labored a profession job of discovering a community and pathways to construct an consciousness and amplify this message after which deliver an actual story that creates a pathway to ambassadors and organizations selecting this up for a future work.

Renata Bernarde (21:23)
Okay, that’s fantastic. We want any person such as you on the helm. Now, you talked about AI earlier than, Michelle. I wish to return to that dialog. I’ve been discussing AI, IT looks like three years since ChatGPT has been round as a result of when ChatGPT and different AI instruments took place, IT meant that the job seeker had instruments to make use of to steadiness off the usage of automation.

on the employer aspect when IT involves applicant monitoring techniques. So IT turned extra of a good recreation, however then IT added an entire bunch of complexities and created different points. Extra broadly, speaking about AI within the workforce, there’s a variety of concern that automation will push all the employees out. I feel IT’s already doing that. We additionally discuss concerning the concern that automation will scale back the variety of

Youthful employees coming into the workforce, Korn Ferry’s report. ⁓ I interviewed the particular person accountable for that, ⁓ identified the truth that if we don’t have these youthful employees, we’ve got lack of succession planning after which we are going to ultimately run out of leaders. IT’s such fascinating conundrums that we’ve got with AI. How do you see the mature professionals finest complementing AI relatively than competing with AI?

Michele (22:35)
Mm.

Look, and I feel that’s a very good entree onto this. One of many phrases that I got here throughout a month or so again was crystallized intelligence. And I actually preferred that time period in relation to AI and mature employees. So everyone knows, as you’ve highlighted, the youthful gen are going through a couple of challenges. The truth is, as a lovely group of individuals, ⁓ the mature employee is barely extra enticing. So employers will look to rent

worker over 55, sorry, over 50. In simply over 50 % of instances, for the beneath 25, that’s beneath 45%. So the mature employee here’s a little bit forward of the sport for a change. But when I take IT again to the mature work, and what do they convey, they convey that units these units of experiences, they convey context, they convey judgment, they convey the so what, and so they deliver the power to ask the query differently.

And so there’s an excessive quantity of bias on this space the place folks go, ⁓ IT’s tech. ⁓ an older particular person isn’t up with tech. can’t handle IT. And so for people who find themselves tech within the business, many individuals truly are taking part in with this daily themselves and personally leveraging IT to assist with their job functions to assist with their Jobs. And so I used to be attempting to drag collectively some items for an article the opposite day and a ⁓ search.

Renata Bernarde (23:51)
you

Michele (24:16)
utilizing AI, utilizing our chapter, our copilot, turned up over a dozen articles that speak about AI and the mature employee and the efficiencies and effectives which are there. What we’re doing is we’re lacking connecting the dots right here, that the kinds of expertise that you just want in 2030, you for those who take a look at WEF 2030, what are the abilities that you just’ll want? The vast majority of these are delicate expertise. And people are the abilities.

Renata Bernarde (24:35)
Yeah.

Michele (24:46)
{that a} mature employee has developed. Now, I’m not saying they don’t must study. Completely, they should study. However truly, you’ll discover they’ve gone via many iterations of Technology turning into part of their position and really being vital in delivering the worth that they should as organizations, as people in these organizations. What’s occurred in organizations is the shortage of funding.

Rebecca (24:58)
you

Michele (25:10)
in these people above a sure age as properly. So I feel there’s dozens of research that discuss concerning the worth. What we’re lacking is connecting and eradicating this bias about employees’ lack of ability to study.

Renata Bernarde (25:24)
If you happen to had been speaking to a skeptical CEO concerning the want for a task like chief longevity officer or a extra ⁓ strategic understanding of layoffs and what that may do to tradition, the ⁓ firm’s capability to face up to

hardship, proper? So we’re shedding these delicate expertise, we’re shedding the tradition, we’re shedding the data. I can see that in a number of the huge layoffs that I helped with, you already know, having shoppers which are shedding their Jobs or have misplaced their Jobs in 2025. And as they, you already know, get in the direction of the top of their tenure in that group, they’re pulling their hair out as a result of they’re abandoning an entire bunch of

tasks, points, clients, shoppers which have nowhere to go to, that there isn’t a transition and so they really feel actually, I preserve reminding them that that’s not their downside anymore, however IT’s actually onerous to let go for those who’ve been in that group for generally 10, 20 years. IT’s so onerous to let go of one thing that you just had been the caretaker for for thus lengthy. So for those who had been speaking to a skeptical CEO.

What would you inform them?

Michele (26:53)
Did you wish to soar in Rebecca and kick us off?

Rebecca (26:55)
You go first, Michelle.

Michele (26:57)
Okay, I’m going to do that actually merely ⁓ as a result of I used to be having this dialog with ⁓ NEDs in addition to CEOs. So I wish to borrow my sustainability set of experiences. And the rationale I’m doing that’s as a result of this must be a hardcore monetary purpose to arrange a concentrate. There are such a lot of competing calls for for executives in right this moment’s working environments.

Why is there a purpose financially, each for the wealth of the group, the wealth of staff and the wealth of the purchasers and future resilience to really concentrate? And to me, there’s a few issues as a result of IT is a monetary purpose to concentrate. One, many organizations are nonetheless scuffling with a ability scarcity. They can’t get the proper expertise to fill the Jobs that they’ve and they should develop. So primary, possibly it is best to take into consideration the pool of individuals.

that you just’re attempting to deal with to get these expertise and get these Jobs stuffed differently.

In order that is without doubt one of the commonest issues that truly does unite all of this work. Second purpose to concentrate is your buyer base is altering. Until you’re into some services and products which are completely ⁓ have an enormous goal market of the very younger and even that market’s shrinking, the client base is transferring. And needing to trace that, perceive what which means to your product design, to your buyer expertise.

Renata Bernarde (28:00)
Mm.

Michele (28:30)
turns into actually vital.

Renata Bernarde (28:31)
Michelle, thanks a lot. suppose what you’re ⁓ offering to the viewers here’s a very fascinating understanding of issues that I hadn’t considered. am assuming a lot of my classes hadn’t regarded as properly. I wish to go into extra of a sensible…

⁓ area now and possibly i’m assuming Rebecca could have so much to say however i would like each of you to to faucet in beginning with if we’re sitting subsequent to a 50 yr outdated who has simply been made redundant you already know what could be the three issues that we’d inform them to do within the subsequent

90 days and I say 90 days as a result of that’s normally the span that folks imagine that they should get a job. I imply, some individuals are ridiculous, I’ve to say. I’ve a shopper who this yr known as me early January to say that he wanted a job in 30 days and he’s a C-level skilled and I’m like, sir, I’m so sorry. I’m not a fairy godmother. I’m only a profession coach.

Michele (29:25)
You

Renata Bernarde (29:42)
And IT took him, IT took him simply over three months. So he, he managed to get a job, simply over three months, which is superb for a C degree skilled on a really excessive, ⁓ earnings. So what normally I’ve been telling them tends to differ as a result of IT begins off with long-term planning. I’ve shoppers which are of their fifties that wish to.

Michele (29:53)
you

Renata Bernarde (30:09)
I’ve retired in 10, 15 years and I’ve shoppers there of their 50s and by no means even thought of retirement. Generally due to monetary points, many instances as a result of they identical to the thought of being busy. They’re apprehensive from a Health perspective, from a wellbeing perspective, they’re apprehensive about their understanding of retirement from what they’ve seen from earlier generations is that your cognitive talents go down, your Health goes down.

folks not being stimulated sufficient, in order that they don’t need that. I feel that an important factor to start with is to have that self-reflection. Would you agree?

Rebecca (30:42)
Thank

Completely, I’ll soar in there. suppose completely. And likewise that though you do wish to, there’s a way and motion bias, it’s good to change one thing. is a second, whether or not you’ve left, whether or not you’ve been made redundant otherwise you’ve left for different causes, there’s a interval the place there could also be grief in shedding that position or that profession or that chance, but in addition IT’s not the time to beat your self up. IT’s the time to be sort to your self and take.

that no matter that reflection appears to be like like for you. ⁓ And I like your give attention to the long run as properly. IT’s not, I do know there’s a way of what’s the subsequent and the way do I get IT now, but in addition definitely at this stage of our profession, is the subsequent 10, 20 years appear to be? That’s most likely not how I had checked out my profession earlier on. And IT’s a fantastic alternative in some methods to have the ability to, for those who can cease, replicate, be sort to your self, primary in that course of.

Renata Bernarde (31:48)
Sure. The second factor that I’d inform my 50-year-old shopper is that they should ⁓ upskill their understanding of recruitment and choice. IT’s not even the understanding of their occupation, not but. IT’s the understanding of what’s wanted within the market to get employed or to alter careers or to ⁓ exit and discuss to the community.

IT looks like most 50 yr olds, I’m 53, 54 by the point this podcast comes out. So I do know my technology, you I’m fortunate that that is what I do for a residing. So I’ve a greater understanding than most, however my technology X, they’re cynics, they poke enjoyable of themselves, they poke enjoyable of individuals that’s good at self-

improvement or self-selling or ⁓ private, they make enjoyable of the phrase private branding. I do know them, they’re all my mates. I perceive how awkward IT is for them to be on this state of affairs the place they must go to market and must have that vulnerability to reveal the state of affairs that they’re both altering careers or altering Jobs. IT’s a altering establishment they’re not accustomed to. ⁓

Once more, I’d like to get your suggestions about going into networking and recruitment when you find yourself in that kind of crossroad in your profession.

Rebecca (33:25)
Michelle, do you wish to go first on this one?

Michele (33:27)
Yeah.

Look, I feel I discovered one of many fascinating issues about once more, instances having modified and but our outdated perceptions having not. So whenever you truly converse to any person and so they say, I’m not getting via to the recruiter or I’m not getting via to the job interview. After which I’ve requested communications, how have you ever acquired your final two Jobs? Did you get them via an software course of? And you may guess what I’m going to say most individuals

haven’t acquired the Jobs that they’ve acquired prior to now, via recruiters, and but we’ve got this computerized default again to making use of for a job that’s marketed on LinkedIn or some other place. And so I feel that default is to do with our consolation ranges of going and placing ourselves on the market. In order that’s true. However I feel we additionally want to acknowledge that that default isn’t how we acquired our Jobs within the first place. I feel that’s most likely one factor. I feel the opposite factor is

Rebecca (34:18)
Mm.

Michele (34:23)
that change within the significance of networking. IT was a type of issues that I most likely discovered about 4 years in the past, and I want I’d identified approach again when, that the connections and the way you work together with folks is an important factor. The abilities that you’ve, there are various folks on the market which have the identical expertise, however IT’s how you might be in what these firms are doing, how a lot analysis you’ve performed, how a lot preparation, and the funding that you just’re making in creating that understanding.

The opposite factor is simply that outdated methods. Yeah. So using, can take an terrible lot of time and a variety of power to use and stand up thus far. There’s so many instruments on the market right this moment to assist us. Let’s use them, I feel might be one of many issues. And simply to deliver that again to the private worth. If you happen to’ve been in a company surroundings for a very long time and also you haven’t needed to swap and alter and set new issues up.

That could be a actually vital half, suppose, for me. So each I agree with what’s modified about recruitment and tips on how to get a job, but in addition the way you worth what you’ve acquired and the way you’ll translate that. you already know, the softer expertise, how they translate throughout sectors, I feel is a very vital half. And I’ll take another factor. I at all times stated I used to be going to almost be performed. One of many issues that’s actually shocked me is having, for me, as a result of I invested on this undertaking,

IT’s made an enormous distinction. My capability to interact with, I feel I’ve had a 5 % no fee from the a whole lot of conferences that I’ve requested for. And so even for those who’re not, if you’re searching for a job, study some issues that you just’re desirous about, analysis them, perceive them so to add worth to these conversations. And I feel that including worth, how do you deliver one thing to that particular person in that dialog that they didn’t have earlier than versus…

Renata Bernarde (36:05)
Mm-hmm.

Michele (36:14)
as we all know attempting to search for a job.

Renata Bernarde (36:15)
In order that was actually good from Michelle. Rebecca, the third factor that I’d say to a 50 plus yr outdated and I would like your suggestions on that is one thing that I’m listening to so much from recruiters. That is precise suggestions from recruiters when they’re discussing a task or expertise and competencies with extra skilled professionals. The professionals ⁓ generally say IT, you already know, are fairly

open about the truth that they’re not desirous about taking part on this new realm of the economic system, be IT AI, be IT hybrid, be IT distant work. They solely need a job if IT doesn’t contain any of that. The recruiter stated to me, properly, good luck.

to you, you you’re not going to have the ability to discover work for those who’re not open to the brand new methods of working. However there’s fairly based on recruiters and IT’s not only one, IT’s multiple and IT’s not simply in Australia, IT’s throughout. There’s a proportion of the 50 plus yr outdated that simply desires to complete off their careers the best way that IT has been going thus far. They aren’t desirous about synthetic intelligence, new tech.

⁓ managing distant groups, none of that for them. Is that one thing that you just really feel otherwise you expertise as properly?

Rebecca (37:47)
Are you able to inform from my face? ⁓ Wow, ⁓ that’s actually fascinating. I discuss to recruiters one to 1, not in the best way that you just do. ⁓ I assume I’m not shocked although as properly. You will have people spend a variety of time in your profession and also you get to some extent the place you may go, that is what I would like. These are my non-negotiables. In order that’s nice. But additionally ⁓ I feel we speak about

you already know, the necessity to study, however there’s additionally a must unlearn as properly, you already know, a number of the assumptions or values or methods of working. In order that’s been actually highly effective for me to go, have, you already know, possibly I’ve some bias about how one thing works. There’s a chunk of transferring again these layers and going, what would possibly a subsequent profession or a job appear to be the place I don’t deliver these bias or these caught methods of working.

I feel IT’s fairly fascinating being a mum to 2 women who’ve lately entered the workforce, one’s nonetheless at uni and one’s within the workforce. And I did catch myself going, definitely for these entry degree roles, that surroundings may be very interesting proper now. I do know as a brand new mum, I’d have liked to have the ability to work two days per week from house, have versatile choices. And IT goes again to a number of the structural challenges. suppose that’s very…

welcomed and ⁓ embraced for our entry degree employees and virtually a non-negotiable. I’m not going to take a job that’s 100 % within the workplace and never ready to make use of tech expertise in a approach that helped me versus a few of these ⁓ employees and recruiters that you just spoke to going, no, I would like IT this fashion. So my remark, my recommendation on that’s, yeah, flexibility goes to be key, but in addition checking a few of your

assumptions and the alternatives and being open to genuinely the alternatives to work differently and to advance your data and your impression via Technology. for somebody who’s searching for work, don’t suppose you may ignore Technology and I don’t suppose you may ignore IT for all times. Navigating the Health system for the time being, for those who…

usually are not in a position to navigate tech, IT’s a really troublesome journey. And so IT’s a life ability, not only a work ability. And I’ll possibly simply shut this off to go, IT’s truly why our schooling techniques must suppose deeply about how we’re embedding this or responding to AI. IT’s not about are children dishonest or are they studying? IT’s truly about what are the business that we’re transferring into. And if we haven’t

accountable use of AI if we haven’t created ⁓ accountable use of Technology or the power to use IT within the office, then we’re not doing our job as educators.

Renata Bernarde (40:45)
Sure, however you may see how a lot IT wants the skilled to ⁓ have a development mindset, be desirous about studying. And if you’re used to managing groups ⁓ face-to-face within the workplace, managing and sustaining excessive efficiency for distant groups is totally different. IT requires a distinct set of expertise. IT requires you to work otherwise together with your groups.

Rebecca (41:09)
Sure.

Renata Bernarde (41:14)
in an effort to allow ⁓ the tradition to bloom. Tradition isn’t ⁓ correlated to being within the workplace. Tradition has to do together with your capability to handle the group no matter how IT operates. And all of that requires studying that some individuals are not prepared to do anymore. So fascinating.

Rebecca (41:36)
Mm.

Michele (41:37)
And I agree with what you’re saying that there are clearly people ⁓ who’re seeing that as a tough ⁓ constraint for them. I ponder whether the totally different approach of additionally IT, know, Rebecca, I preferred your perspective on that is truly simply not a job ability. That is truly a set of life expertise. You will reside for one more.

probably every little thing being nice, one other 40 years, you may’t afford to have these issues blocked as a part of your approach of as a result of your high quality of life will dramatically lowered for those who’re not in a position to leverage. So relatively than seeing IT as a piece ability, IT’s truly a life ability. The second half is what I discovered in my many, discussions is folks haven’t truly actually understood how lengthy they could must work for.

Renata Bernarde (42:20)
Hmm.

Michele (42:30)
They’re utilizing a lens of their mother and father’ technology who retired once they had been 60, possibly 65. They usually’re probably not translating that with them residing until late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s, possibly longer. Really, the necessity to work longer is there. So these Jobs have modified and are altering. And so how do they make use of these expertise in a approach figuring out that

Financially, they could want to decide on to work longer as properly. So the thought of retiring 5 years time so I don’t have to fret about IT may not be there as an choice for many individuals who thought IT was as a result of we’re utilizing all of the techniques.

Renata Bernarde (43:10)
Sure, completely. I feel each of you already know that every one of my shoppers are 40 and above. Very hardly ever I’ve a shopper of their 30s. IT’s actually fascinating. And I like all my shoppers, even the younger ones, however I don’t really feel like they’re prepared for me but. They actually insist on working with me and I’m like, I feel you want a couple of extra. ⁓

Michele (43:28)
Yeah. ⁓

Renata Bernarde (43:36)
you already know, bumps on the highway to get to a time when a coach like me will actually make an impression on you. However that midlife profession checkup with a coach, I imagine, is so vital. I imply, I’ve had IT, you I used to be very fortunate that I had coaches and mentors alongside the best way. And ⁓ I’ve created this kind of, I name IT a private portfolio that’s a part of my teaching ⁓ platform. However I’d love to listen to from you as I kind of

take into consideration tips on how to refresh my teaching and my paperwork with my shoppers. I’d love to listen to from you. How would you design a midlife profession checkup for professionals of their late 40s and 50s and 60s? What questions would you need them to ask themselves earlier than going into the job market? I feel that doing IT earlier than you apply for Jobs is de facto the important thing, proper?

Rebecca (44:36)
Yeah,

after which repeatedly as properly. You don’t do IT as soon as simply in midlife. How do you construct that into? I’ll kick off with a couple of questions, Michelle will certainly have extra. suppose, and that is my private expertise with this primary one, and I wouldn’t have added IT to this if I hadn’t absolutely have lived IT and breathed IT. However the first query is what issues to me most? And I don’t suppose

Renata Bernarde (44:39)
Yeah.

I feel at the very least annually, Rebecca, that’s what I inform them. A minimum of annually, yeah.

Rebecca (45:05)
I hadn’t stopped lengthy sufficient to actually take into consideration that. ⁓ So the place do I get my power? The place do I get my motivation? What are the kinds of individuals and tasks that deliver me pleasure and light-weight? And in some ways in which’s a luxurious to have the ability to cease and ask that query. However I feel IT’s vital on a regular basis, however completely crucial in midlife when, you actually issues are altering round you. ⁓

children are rising up, ⁓ life selections are totally different. So that might be the primary piece and I’m fairly certain there’s one thing like that most likely in your checkup already. I’m going again to the second query round the place we had been simply at when it comes to AI Technology and alternative ways of working. I’d be checking in going, one in every of my expertise, my judgment expertise, the place do I match on this new AI period? As a result of… ⁓

IT’s not going away. The person suppliers or options or merchandise will change and can morph, however IT’s not going away. truly, ⁓ you already know, apart from embedding your self within the observe and studying, IT’s additionally considering clearly about what do I deliver that AI can’t do? The place’s my distinctive humanity, humanness on this dialog? ⁓ And the final test in for me midlife and ⁓

Michelle stated this, midlife is, lifespan, work span is altering. So having a long term plan, what does the subsequent 20 years appear to be? And having a view not simply on profession, however all these different features that make life price residing. They’re my high three.

Renata Bernarde (46:49)
Mm.

Michele (46:51)
Yeah

Renata Bernarde (46:52)
Do you’ve gotten something so as to add Michelle?

Michele (46:55)
Yeah, I do. ⁓ In all probability two issues. ⁓ And look, I like the purpose. We must be doing this far, far earlier. And we should be taking a for much longer time period perspective in the best way that we think about this. That doesn’t imply you don’t pivot. That doesn’t imply you don’t rethink. However ⁓ permitting your self the time to think about what’s most vital. And I like the power perspective.

I feel that’s a very vital level that I’ve seen of people that, in reality, I simply met with somebody this morning, and he’s understanding now much more about the place he sees his objective and power versus a full-time profession job, and due to this fact has moved into far more of a portfolio sort set of labor. I feel that most likely the factor that I wished to encourage ⁓ as a part of that checkpoint is the alternatives that we’ve got and the results of these selections.

And what I imply by that’s we find yourself in a state of affairs the place we find yourself blocked as a result of we predict, properly, I’ve performed this, I’ve acquired this dependency and that dependency. And we don’t take into consideration having a number of careers and altering and really, you already know, being that florist that you just at all times wished to be. Okay, IT may need a small quantity of the wage that you just had earlier than, but when IT makes you actually completely happy, and IT may lead to you working longer.

So be IT, you already know, turning into a trainer, doing so, permitting you the thought of getting a distinct profession as a result of we’re going to be working for 40 years probably and saying, truly, I do have selections. And the way would possibly I execute on these selections? I feel is a very vital, a very vital factor versus simply, I would like a brand new skillset to proceed to progress. In order that’s most likely one factor I add is the lively alternative and proudly owning IT.

and driving IT and being the one who makes these selections versus any person truly making them for you. And sadly, possibly being those that they select to not have keep within the firm.

Renata Bernarde (48:46)
Yeah.

Sure. You understand, Michelle, I’ve spoken about this on the podcast rather a lot, however possibly a few years in the past, and I haven’t spoken about IT sufficient now lately. And IT’s this concept of us being ⁓ burdened by the sunk value mentality. Proper. So that you’ve invested a lot on this. What folks don’t see is that so that you can keep it up with a profession that’s not ⁓

Rebecca (48:58)
will get.

Renata Bernarde (49:27)
enticing to you anymore, if ever was. Generally folks select careers due to circumstance, due to what their mother and father wished for them. However what’s going to occur now’s you’ll have to proceed to put money into that profession that you just don’t even like. Whereas you possibly can be investing in a profession that you just truly need, or IT doesn’t even must be a profession, IT can simply be a job. know, folks have totally different ambitions.

Rebecca (49:51)
you

Renata Bernarde (49:54)
observe what IT is that you just actually wish to do. We’re in that privileged ⁓ a part of the planet the place folks which are listening to this podcast, I assume, are privileged sufficient to make these selections. And the opposite factor that I see taking place is so much is folks feeling like they can’t ask anyone for assist. And when you find yourself unemployed,

particularly my shoppers in the US. imply, we’re fortunate right here in Australia. Now we have extra assist right here. My European shoppers, they’re tremendous fortunate as properly. They’ve numerous assist. If you’re in the US and also you’re listening to this, know that IT is okay so that you can go and ask folks, can I keep at your house? Are you able to assist me, mother and or dad? Even for those who’re in your 50s, IT doesn’t matter. Ask for assist.

as a result of you probably have time, it is possible for you to to pay them again, assist them whenever you’re older. Like, you already know what I imply? Like IT will at all times be a ⁓ state of affairs the place IT’s symbiotic, proper? You’ll assist them again when the time comes as properly. And I can see Rebecca nodding so much.

Rebecca (50:54)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Properly, I used to be simply considering too, IT goes again to that earlier remark of being sort to your self. Most individuals who discover themselves in a job transition, ⁓ IT’s not one thing you intend for. IT’s not one thing that, ⁓ even when IT was not an surroundings that you just had been thriving in, IT’s a scary place to be. And being an expert asking mates or different professionals in your community to assist is…

Yeah, IT’s not simple. And so there’s some, there’s some ability in that, notably for those who’re participating together with your skilled community and asking for assist or engagement. In order that significance of, you already know, IT’s okay to ask, but in addition ⁓ IT’s okay to interact in methods the place you’re indirectly saying,

have you ever acquired a job for me? Or possibly sharing what are the belongings you’re desirous about? What are the passions you wish to interact with them on? And what concepts would possibly they’ve in serving to via this transition? have a, and a few folks, if my colleagues are listening to the podcast, I’ve a ⁓ private acronym known as a TAG group, which is the transition advisory group.

And the transition advisory group is actually somebody who will get a random textual content from me most likely, ⁓ you already know, each time this transition section is going on. And a few of IT could be, hey, can we simply have a espresso? I wish to have a chat about blah. ⁓ IT’s not the, I do know there’s a variety of ⁓ dialog concerning the, private board of advisors and that group. This to me is mostly a dialog whenever you’re in, whenever you’re deep in transition, whenever you don’t know what subsequent is coming and you need to have a degree of vulnerability.

round that however I’ve personally acquired a lot from that course of and I speak about IT so much as a result of I would like folks to know that IT’s okay to ask for assist. IT’s okay to and I typically refer them to profession coaches and podcasts like this as properly however IT’s okay to have these conversations. The truth is IT’s most likely superb to your

each psychological Health, but in addition your potential to your subsequent roles as properly, if folks know what you’re searching for and know what you’re able to.

Renata Bernarde (53:14)
Yeah. And you already know,

and IT’s okay to wish a coach as properly. I do know, you already know, that there’s, you already know, cash concerned in that and an funding in you. IT’s not even an funding in me as a coach, IT’s an funding in you. However what actually hurts me, I really feel so dangerous and I’ve been considering so much about a number of the people who reached out to me this yr. And what I hear from them after I ask, know, how lengthy is your…

runway, how lengthy are you able to stand up to with out a job? And they’ll inform me, look, I really feel actually stretch IT, possibly a yr and a half. And I’m like, that is glorious. So, you already know, I will help you get a job a lot sooner. That is how a lot IT’s going to value. They usually come again to me and say, properly, I don’t suppose I can afford you, however you simply informed me you’ve gotten a yr and a half of runway. After which what occurs, sadly, is they arrive again to me a yr later, actually determined.

And I do know, and IT’s normally round this time. After which they don’t have a yr and a half anymore, proper? They’re actually, actually, they, and IT’s, IT breaks my coronary heart, you already know? IT breaks my coronary heart. Contemplating the vary of companies that I’ve on provide now that goes from, you already know, actually, actually low cost, to be sincere, all the best way to, you already know, the one-on-one non-public teaching. There’s no excuse for you to not put money into your self, to…

Rebecca (54:21)
you

Renata Bernarde (54:38)
to know that as a result of not all people could have. And I’ve been in that state of affairs, Rebecca, and I feel we’ve met after I simply arrived in Australia, I didn’t have a community right here. IT was actually over time that folks such as you got here into my life. So I wanted a variety of assist to start with and someday that assist was paid. I needed to pay folks to assist me ⁓ do my resume for this market that I didn’t know to.

helped me perceive tips on how to place myself. ⁓ IT was powerful to start with.

Rebecca (55:14)
And being sort to your self is investing in your self and backing your self. suppose Michelle, you’re a major instance of that proper now and turning IT into worth for different folks as properly.

Renata Bernarde (55:18)
Yeah.

Michele (55:25)
Yeah, and look, IT’s fascinating, IT’s most likely the terminology, which sounds so stunning popping out from you, Rebecca. IT’s not stuff that you just’re saying, be sort to your self. I’m at all times pushing on the edge and attempting to make that occur. so terminology will work for various folks. However the bit that I wish to emphasize on what you’re speaking about is that this misplaced perception that folks have that they’re not price investing in. So going again to your level, Renata.

Rebecca (55:40)
Hmm.

Michele (55:53)
You’ve generated how a lot income over your lifetime. You’re speaking a few actually small share of that, which is vital to spend with any person that, you and IT’s actually vital that you just discover any person that that gels for you, that works for you, and that gives you sensible recommendation. However let’s be sincere, you already know, IT’s a sensible cheerleader who’s in your nook, however who may even you may see the outcomes, proper. And a lot such as you run your online business or that you just’ve run your position,

with anticipating outcomes and also you needing to place in work to ship issues, IT’s the identical factor. so seeing IT versus seeing as a transaction, IT must be seen as an funding in serving to safe that future perspective. so I feel that reframing and rethinking is a very vital a part of a coach and saying, we’re price IT, you’re price IT. So.

Renata Bernarde (56:46)
Sure. Thanks for that, Michelle. That basically makes me completely happy. If we needed to give our listeners a remaining one motion from every of us for them to remove and begin, you already know, contemplating how they’ll rethink their profession for 2026 and past, what would you say? Let’s begin with Rebecca. One motion.

Rebecca (57:12)
One motion, keep linked. ⁓ Purposeful connection together with your community or with new networks. There generally is a tendency to form of go inside and resolve IT by yourself. Keep linked. And in that connection, ⁓ you’ll be including worth for different folks as properly, not only a, and I can use, know, the rationale why Michelle and I are on this podcast right here is as a result of we stayed linked and I stayed curious and I stated, hey, I’d like to.

volunteer to assist form this. I performed a really, very small position in what Michelle’s doing, however that keep linked and keep curious. I simply took one and made IT two, so there you go.

Renata Bernarde (57:52)
That’s good.

What about you, Michelle?

Michele (57:55)
I’m going to go the curious, I’ll choose up on that. Brave is one which I’d wish to add. Staying brave is de facto vital half. You understand, we’ve had totally different phases in our lives, taking dangers. You understand, the chance of not discovering one thing for those who’re actively concerned in IT truly reduces considerably. So whenever you actively choose IT up and pursue IT, IT will not be the factor that you just thought you had been going to, however courageousness, I feel, is a very vital half, but in addition

and I’m going to tack one on, is saying, how do I deliver this considering, how do I deliver this rethink into totally different components of my life, whether or not IT be relationships, my volunteering, my studying, in order that I don’t turn into so fixated on a single path, which is getting a brand new job? What are the opposite issues that truly, by the very nature of doing them, IT will truly make it easier to turn into extra assured, be extra balanced, be extra broad within the views that you just provide?

and due to this fact make IT extra enticing to have a dialog which may result in future employment. That may be my…

Renata Bernarde (58:59)
I

love that. I like each of these issues. I’m very a lot about braveness over confidence, 100%. ⁓ Okay. My recommendation, properly, since you’ve been so good in giving nice recommendation, I feel that the one factor I’d add that I feel is de facto vital is to know what you’re scared of. Identify your fears, write them down, as a result of our mind performs methods on us.

Rebecca (59:07)
What’s your recommendation for NADA?

Renata Bernarde (59:29)
And IT kind of exacerbates concern and IT makes the world far more sophisticated than IT must be. ⁓ So possibly for those who put down in phrases what IT is that you just’re apprehensive about, you would possibly see how small these issues are within the scheme of issues and the way a lot you may overcome them simply by having some methods and methods out of your braveness and out of your community to beat.

these fears. So possibly that’s what we will find yourself with. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of me, Rebecca and Michelle. I actually wish to keep linked with you and assist you in your pursuits with this longevity undertaking that you’ve occurring. I’ll put a hyperlink beneath so that folks which are listening right this moment, in order that they’ll study extra about what IT is and…

Rebecca (1:00:01)
Bye.

Michele (1:00:02)
Love IT.

Renata Bernarde (1:00:23)
join with each of you on LinkedIn in the event that they wish to. However thanks a lot for approaching the podcast.

Rebecca (1:00:29)
Thanks.

Michele (1:00:29)
Thanks.

Yeah, thanks for the chance, Renata. Love the dialog.