The Rise of Portfolio Careers and Interim Executives

Renata Bernarde (01:35)
Earlier than we start in the present day’s episode, I wish to share one thing that I consider will be extremely useful to you. I’m launching the RB LinkedIn Membership. IT’s a personal LinkedIn group designed to assist professionals such as you construct constant, unimaginable presence with out the overwhelm. Right here’s how IT works. Every week you’ll get a structured LinkedIn activity, performed for you templates and my private suggestions in your posts.

We’ll additionally meet for a month-to-month stay Q &A and you can be a part of a supportive group of friends who’re additionally working to get their visibility and profession development utilizing LinkedIn. The concept is easy. As an alternative of spending hours guessing what to do on LinkedIn, you should have a transparent path, steerage and accountability, all in lower than an hour per week. If this feels like what you want proper now, you’ll be able to be part of the RB LinkedIn Membership in the present day.

IT’s a month-to-month membership and IT’s designed to simplify one thing that’s often seen as arduous and troublesome, however I’m assured that I can assist you with, and I’m additionally assured that IT will assist your profession. The hyperlink to affix is within the present notes. Go verify IT out now.

Renata Bernarde (02:46)
So Donna, you’re.

a associate in interim govt administration at Watermark primarily based in Melbourne. Proper. And in our earlier episode, we mentioned your in depth profession and the truth that you come from accounting and HR after which moved into govt search. And I’ll hyperlink that episode within the present notes in case individuals wish to return in and listen to extra about you. However in the present day we’re right here to speak about Watermark’s fifteenth

Donna Burr (02:53)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Renata Bernarde (03:18)
annual interim govt survey. Earlier than we even begin speaking the survey and the ⁓ report, I would like us to outline what interim govt administration is for people who don’t know precisely what IT is. So how would you clarify that? Let’s say you had been in a barbecue and other people had been asking you what you do. Sure.

Donna Burr (03:38)
Yeah, sorry.

Over the barbecue dialog. ⁓

So interim govt administration merely is being dropped into a corporation, ⁓ often at quick discover, to ship an consequence. So often you’re fulfilling a job, completely. However if you end up given the transient, IT’s sometimes an issue you’re coming in to unravel. So sometimes our information would say a six to 9 month contract.

serving to an organisation. After we say govt, you recognize, that’s roles that kick in on the 250k ⁓ kind of wage and above throughout the entire C-suite. So we outline that because the CEO position and the entire seats across the desk. However coming in in a type of roles on a short-term foundation to assist ⁓ kind out an issue or sit within the seat for a interval of the time whereas the consumer’s going by some sort of transformation.

Renata Bernarde (04:40)
And I additionally need you to elucidate the idea of a portfolio profession, as a result of even when we now have listeners who usually are not at that stage of interim govt administration, there are alternatives for individuals to have a portfolio of contracts, consultancies, board roles, that kind of add as much as what could possibly be a wage equal to a everlasting position wage. So how would you outline a portfolio profession?

Donna Burr (04:58)
Sure.

quickly.

Yeah, so after we take into consideration a portfolio, and also you elevate a extremely good level, I believe the world of the market that Watermark and positively the survey will discuss slightly bit extra about faucets into is the manager finish of the market, however the contingent workforce, if you happen to like, so those that are selecting to work on a contract contract, day charge sort foundation, I believe globally now represents about 46 % of the market. So there’s a groundswell of people that select to work this manner.

in any respect wage value factors throughout the market. However after we take into consideration a portfolio, you’re usually buying and selling a ⁓ everlasting wage that you just’re consumed a fortnightly month-to-month foundation, engaged with one group. Most individuals assign certainty to that kind of position, a everlasting position if you happen to like. You’re buying and selling that for a special approach of working the place you select to consider

not simply your work, but in addition your private curiosity and pursuits, your hobbies, your aspect hustles as a portfolio. So if you happen to think about, I think about a constructing with quite a few pillars and every of these pillars representing doubtlessly a special revenue stream and or a special interest and or a special ardour pursuit. So that you’re kind of buying and selling this one bucket of wage for doubtlessly a number of buckets of wage. And that may be interim work, could possibly be consulting work. ⁓

you recognize, a complete vary of issues. You might need elder care, you might need youthful care, you might need aspect hustles, you might need ardour initiatives, you may take pleasure in travelling. IT’s extra of a holistic mind-set about work life, ⁓ is what we’d name a portfolio profession.

Renata Bernarde (06:51)
Okay. And Watermark has been doing this report for 15 years. So there’s simply a lot information. There’s simply a lot information there. And I actually wish to discover out from you what stands out essentially the most concerning the outcomes from 2025 in comparison with earlier years.

Donna Burr (06:57)
Sure, really feel like IT’s my birthday.

Yeah, look thanks and actually excited this yr to be speaking about our fifteenth yr of information. So we’ve obtained some longitudinal information that we’ve kind of lined over these 15 years which we’ll get into however most likely three issues stand out for me ⁓ on this yr’s information. If I take into consideration the candidate aspect IT’s this actual shift from ⁓ interested by interim work as a little bit of a stopgap.

I’ll do that whereas I’m in between roles to deliberately shifting to this as a approach of working. And there’s a complete vary of the explanation why that’s occurred, which we’ll dive into. From a consumer aspect, the dialog shifted from what’s IT, do I want to make use of IT, do I have to find out about IT, to really compete in in the present day’s market and never be tapped into. This can be a section of ⁓ expertise to faucet into to assist our organisation to alter and rework.

I believe the true aspect there’s that that organizations which might be quickly present process change and in search of expertise at a time limit and to borrow these expertise to assist them get by a change, a change, an issue, are seeing this as a extremely sort of strategic approach of with the ability to do this. So an actual shift in how shoppers are interested by tapping into this market. And I believe the third level that got here by was simply how

AI has revolutionized how we stay, how we work, and loads of themes and information coming by the report round how the interim executives who responded to this survey are leveraging AI to sort of amplify their management. And we predict are actually kind of on the forefront of how that’s enjoying out in organizations. In order that they’re most likely the three areas.

Renata Bernarde (09:05)
Okay. And I’ve observed that there have been 900 people that ⁓ contributed to the survey. And now you’ve this ⁓ large amount of information. imply, 900 for an Australian market, which isn’t that large. IT’s an enormous quantity ⁓ of individuals. ⁓ So utilizing that information now, you talked about your shoppers. How are you adapting?

Donna Burr (09:24)
Sure.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (09:33)
proper now primarily based on what you’ve discovered from the report? Are you doing issues otherwise in the way in which that you just work together with candidates and with shoppers?

Donna Burr (09:43)
Yeah, look, thanks. sure, and if any of the 900 listening to this podcast, thanks for contributing to the information set. So from a consumer perspective, we love having this deep wealthy Information. IT is information pushed hiring that we’re speaking about right here. We are able to discuss to our shoppers about actual use circumstances of the place different shoppers have tapped into the intra market, what they’ve used them for.

roles, issues that solved, outcomes which have been achieved, right down to the granular stage of that is what IT prices to usher in an interim CEO on this dimension group. ⁓ And IT’s not watermark sort of kind of making an attempt to do the promote job right here. That is impartial information that’s kind of confirming that is what’s occurring within the market. So actually ⁓ kind of data-driven hiring on the consumer aspect, actually strong use circumstances of the place this has labored.

⁓ for them that’s broader than simply kind of what we do at Watermark. On the candidate aspect, know, equally, know, deep wealthy Information, we create avatars every year that symbolize the individuals who have responded to the survey. And people avatars once more, go right into a granular stage of Information, however actually, I believe assist executives who’re selecting to work this manner, or perhaps at a crossroad and interested by what we wish to name their third act.

and considering shifting to extra of a portfolio approach of working, what do they should do to achieve success? How do they set themselves up for achievement? And we once more have information right here from 900 executives within the final 12 months who’ve been doing this efficiently. And we will actually assist information individuals by that course of to essentially work out if that is the suitable subsequent step for them or not. And if this can be a path they’re happening, how do they finest set themselves up for achievement?

Renata Bernarde (11:32)
Okay. We defined interim govt administration extra broadly, however now I wish to get into ⁓ the precise position the explanation why individuals determine to have interaction interim executives. And one of many tendencies that had been highlighted within the report is the expansion within the interim assignments which might be linked to enterprise transformation roles versus

Donna Burr (11:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (12:02)
filling out ⁓ positions that had been, you recognize, the disaster hole filling that occurs, you recognize, someone will get hit by a bus after which in a short time that you must discover someone. A few questions that I’ve for you. One, as a result of that is enterprise transformation roles usually are not disaster hole filling roles, does that delay the method of discovering the interim govt? As a result of, you recognize, IT’s not like, ⁓ we want…

Donna Burr (12:23)
Okay.

Renata Bernarde (12:30)
to have someone again as a CFO on Monday as a result of our CFO has left. Now the enterprise transformation position, I’m questioning if that extends the recruitment course of for interim executives.

Donna Burr (12:47)
No, I believe ⁓ the quick reply could be no. assume the timeframe, we work all the time to the consumer’s timeframe, however we will flip round an interim govt in 24 hours. We are able to flip them round in two weeks. The calls that we get from shoppers are sit within the two buckets. One is come and sit within the seat of a job.

or two is extra framed as a change mission. So come and sit alongside the incumbent group and whereas they’re working the enterprise, we want your capability, bandwidth and experience to assist change the enterprise. However the course of for really bringing them on board completely is similar. We might nonetheless be in search of the varieties of issues these executives have solved the place they’ve…

performed the same sort of transformation, shoppers have cash on the desk for what someone has performed. The expectation is when an interim is available in, they over hit the mark. ⁓ And so we could have performed our due diligence there and understanding the expertise of our community and what they’ve performed to have the ability to kind of flip that round in kind of sometimes three to 4 enterprise days, however once more, working on the tempo of ⁓ the consumer.

Renata Bernarde (14:06)
Yeah, okay. And what are the primary enterprise transformation challenges that you just see shoppers in search of assist with?

Donna Burr (14:14)
Yeah, so actually a constant theme has been round enterprise turnaround, so really attending to the foundation trigger and that may be a development agenda, however IT will also be a kind of a value out, price chopping agenda. So I’m very conscious within the final kind of 12 to 24 months, many organisations and executives who is perhaps listening to this may have been impacted by quite a few the fee discount agendas organisations have had.

productiveness positive factors, optimization, ⁓ however equally ⁓ kind of two velocity economic system. There are some sectors which might be rising. So bringing in an interim to really assist develop new markets, set up new merchandise, set up new, ⁓ you go to market choices. So the primary transformations are sometimes these increasingly more we’ve seen although within the final 12 months would be the digital transformation.

So sure, IT will be Technology platforms. IT could possibly be round new methods of working. IT could possibly be round re-augmenting the organisational construction and the talents and the groups wanted to ship on sure buyer outcomes. So digital transformations develop into ⁓ an enormous one. One of many greatest requires interim talent is actually within the Finance house, actually from a watermark perspective. I’d say a few third of our placements relate to Finance.

Definitely the information that got here again from the broader market would point out one thing equally. In order that kind of business acumen, ⁓ understanding the enterprise drivers, with the ability to work throughout, not simply swimming in your personal swim lane of Finance, however working throughout ⁓ the management group, govt group to essentially drive business outcomes has been a constant ⁓ sort of want ⁓ for a lot of organisations, actually within the final 12 months.

Renata Bernarde (16:06)
Yeah, attention-grabbing. And one of many issues I couldn’t discover within the report, however I’m questioning if I missed IT or perhaps you recognize, ⁓ the hole filling interim roles. So that you’re performing CEO, performing ⁓ CIO and whatnot. They’re there filling in till a everlasting individual is appointed. So I’m assuming that six months could be the kind of the tenure that they’d keep.

Donna Burr (16:16)
Sure. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (16:32)
Whereas within the enterprise transformation position, I’m assuming that they is perhaps longer than six months. Are you able to see a distinction between these two varieties of interim as X?

Donna Burr (16:39)
Sure.

Yeah, that’s a extremely nice query. And I suppose every project ⁓ is sort of nuanced. You’re proper, even within the sit within the seat of the, say interim CEO whereas the consumer is working by an exterior recruitment course of to position the everlasting CEO, usually these roles aren’t ⁓ regular state, there’s change occurring. So, know,

Renata Bernarde (16:50)
Mm-hmm.

Donna Burr (17:12)
they’re sitting within the seat however nonetheless driving change, proudly owning the reins and making issues occur for the time that you just’re in that position. Equally on the transformation, which in fact transformations will be multi-year. IT actually relies upon whether or not IT’s a arrange part of a change to kind of hand again into the enterprise to run with. IT’s whether or not you’re coming in partway by a change that hasn’t gone properly. So there’s a remediation piece.

⁓ IT could possibly be, ⁓ you recognize, really ⁓ coming to guide a discrete piece of a broader transformation. Common size of assignments we now have been seeing have been between six to 9 months. That has been pretty ⁓ constant, however inside that, completely, we now have some assignments which might be multi-year and we now have some assignments that we see some assignments that go for 4 months. So I believe you’re considering is correct transformation. ⁓

associated assignments are inclined to have an extended runway. The sit within the seat, relying on how rapidly the consumer can go to market and substitute the position, most likely a shorter tenured for certain.

Renata Bernarde (18:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. And the rationale why I requested it’s because I do know that after I’m discussing with shoppers, the chance of interim govt ⁓ roles for them, a lot of them are actually involved in that from a romantic perspective. I’d love the approach to life. I’d love, you recognize, the

Donna Burr (18:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, who wouldn’t?

Renata Bernarde (18:42)
what retains them from shifting in that route is the fixed want to seek out work. And we now have seen that within the ballot that we’re working on LinkedIn, as we converse, I’m working a ballot and 50 % of the people who mentioned one of many causes they don’t seem to be pursuing an interim govt profession is the fixed want to seek out work as being the largest barrier for them. Do you discover that that’s why individuals pull out of interim as work?

Donna Burr (18:46)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sure.

Sure.

Sure, so let’s discover that. When individuals are selecting to work as an interim govt, we are saying IT’s a stage of life, not an age per se, however IT’s a stage. And the motivation to work this manner is as a result of they’re selecting to not work full time. And most of the people who select to work as an interim as their plan A really are actually excited by the truth that in the event that they’re not working for six months of the yr, so they really don’t need

back-to-back contracts. And we all the time say, you will be as busy or not as you select to be. That is your portfolio, you’re the architect, you’ve self company over how busy or not you select to be saved. After I’m listening to execs saying, ⁓ I’m selecting to not do IT all, I assumed IT was going to be completely different to what IT is and the bit that I don’t like is having to seek out work and all the time be available in the market, says to me that there’s a want or reliance for this stage of life.

to be extra gainfully employed. Now, if you happen to’re coming into interim eager to be busy for 11 months of the yr, you could possibly completely do this. How arduous you go in your networking and activating these networks, you recognize, available in the market promoting your self will completely be a lead indicator of how busy are you and the way seen your pipeline of labor is.

However if you happen to’re kind of coming into this considering, properly, sure, I must be busy 12 months of the yr, however I don’t wish to be doing that work. I would like someone else to unravel that drawback for me. I don’t wish to take company over the networking. I’m unsure that IT’s the suitable stage to be doing this or the suitable motivation to be doing IT. My query for you is, what are you working from in your present position that makes you assume that this manner of working goes to be easier, simpler, and so forth?

Renata Bernarde (20:59)
Sure, sure. So, and also you talked about self-agency and I believe that there’s a rise of self-agency within the company world at massive, not simply in order for you a portfolio profession and also you need interim a ZEC work. I imply, I believe individuals at the moment are realizing that they must be answerable for their careers and community in order that in the event that they determine to go for a everlasting position or determine to have a portfolio profession that they

Donna Burr (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (21:28)
could have a profession that’s sustainable over time as a result of 2025 we now have had so many layoffs in ⁓ mass. So there’s loads of scale layoffs occurring that individuals have come to appreciate they can’t depend on their efficiency. You understand, IT has nothing to do with efficiency. More often than not, their enterprise choices that sit exterior of that instant relationship we along with your supervisor, your division. ⁓

Donna Burr (21:31)
Completely.

Yeah, yeah, so

true.

Renata Bernarde (21:58)
Yeah. What are you able to inform concerning the self company and the way you see IT working properly for people who need that way of life of turning into an interim govt and ⁓ wish to be, I imply, you mentioned you’ll be able to work as a lot as you wish to work, however that requires you to develop into a ⁓ self promoter.

Proper, so what do you see works properly for these interim executives that wish to be busy?

Donna Burr (22:28)
Completely, yep.

Yeah, so I believe IT’s a few issues. One is networking fingers down. The info says, you recognize, the executives who responded to this, that 75 % of their work got here by their community in an period the place we’re so digital first and digitally enabled, you recognize, LinkedIn as a platform for executives, for a lot of job seekers, however actually for the manager job hunter having visibility.

⁓ by face-to-face ⁓ digital platforms, ⁓ being actually ⁓ focused, strategic and deliberate about your networking. We discuss IT in, or I discuss IT in three layers. Most not too long ago, I’ve stolen a time period from a candidate I spoke with the opposite week, however this concept of who’s your fan membership? So who’re the people who find themselves…

your advocates, they’re in your courtroom, they perceive your talent set, what you’re able to doing and would advocate in your behalf for others. you recognize, nice channels to market. So who’re your fan membership? Who’re then your subsequent layer of advocates who, ⁓ you recognize, maybe individuals you’ve labored with very long time in the past who had an excellent expertise of you, however perhaps that you must be reconnecting there and updating on kind of what you’ve performed, ⁓ you recognize, within the meantime to carry them into the fan membership.

After which who’s that community that you just haven’t tapped into but and the way are you gonna faucet into them? So being actually fairly strategic about who’s that community. ⁓ I suppose self-agency will not be counting on anyone else to unravel this for you. You’re the pilot of your plane and being fairly deliberate, thought-about and considerate about that ⁓ goes to be key. So networking is one, being clear on what we name your superpowers, what’s your worth proposition.

you recognize, not fronting as much as a dialog anticipating once more someone else to unravel this for you, however being actually fairly clear about the place you add worth and the way that individual can assist you. ⁓ I believe with the ability to persistently show, you recognize, worth that you just’ve delivered, you recognize, with the ability to discuss to that, ⁓ being pleased with that, being present. So IT’s not about simply expertise in no matter space you’ve performed. You could have 25, 30 years expertise as a…

chief monetary officer, however what have you ever performed within the final couple of years? How are you retaining present in your craft? How are you demonstrating that? How are you bringing that into your dialog? Company is being proactive about all of these items. IT’s the way you’re being interested by digital literacy and AI, about new issues which might be impacting the sector. IT’s being . Once more, businesses is being proactive in doing that. So…

You understand, an interim portfolio approach of working fits people who find themselves very a lot motivated, deliberate and have a plan round that and kind of begin the day with a function and, you recognize, sort of deal with every of these issues. You understand, if that’s not you, then I believe constructing a sustainable pipeline of labor will likely be difficult as a result of that you must entrance into these issues and take possession.

In our networks, these executives who select this as their plan A and have been doing IT for quite a few years, completely have self company ⁓ in spades and do have a sustainable kind of portfolio of labor to the extent that they need. And that appears completely different for everyone.

Renata Bernarde (25:58)
Sure, I really like that you just talked about that. I’m working with shoppers as I all the time do which might be making that transition from everlasting roles to a portfolio profession and even workshopping with them and ensuring that we’re planning IT deliberately and avoiding dangers. IT’s nonetheless very, IT’s a special routine, proper? And IT’s a routine that you just…

Donna Burr (26:21)
Sure.

Renata Bernarde (26:24)
you wish to have, however then whenever you even have IT, you don’t know what to do with IT as a result of there’s loads of free time. the time shouldn’t really be free if you wish to be busy, proper? In case you don’t wish to be busy on a regular basis, sure, go to the golf course, do no matter and journey. However if you wish to have a portfolio profession that’s busy and intense, then that free time is used upskilling.

Donna Burr (26:31)
There’s.

Renata Bernarde (26:51)
connecting, networking, going to occasions. And that’s work, proper? That’s work for an interim govt.

Donna Burr (26:53)
Yep. IT is figure.

And IT’s self-discipline

and IT’s consistency. IT’s not, I’ll do this this week after which, that was slightly bit too arduous. I’ll take a few weeks off. IT’s like something that you just wish to get higher at. We are able to all the time get higher at every part that we put our thoughts to. IT’s self-discipline, consistency and having a plan round that.

Renata Bernarde (27:15)
Sure. And I should timestamp this episode and ship this bit to my shoppers. As a result of whenever you come from massive scale company environments the place busy means being at conferences and answering emails and doing reviews on a regular basis, IT’s such a special angle that that you must have if you end up in control of your profession and ensuring that 70 % of the time.

Donna Burr (27:21)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (27:45)
that you just’re not employed, that you just’re utilizing IT in order that you’ll develop into employed within the close to future. So all of the prospecting of shoppers and the thought management that that you must create, that’s all a part of being an interim govt or if you happen to’re not at that stage, being a portfolio profession skilled.

Donna Burr (27:50)
Completely.

Completely,

and lots of the executives will say to us ⁓ that, know, precisely that when you’ve obtained one eye or one hand within the work, so doing the work, the opposite is completely all the time, you recognize, on the enterprise as a lot as being within the enterprise. And IT is certainly completely different mind-set. Positively not for everyone, however IT does require the self-discipline and a plan and…

You understand, there are various examples on the market and executives who’re doing this and sort of loving the work that they’re doing, doing significant, ⁓ purposeful work for no matter meaning for them ⁓ and having fun with sort of life and, you recognize, ⁓ a mix of all the opposite kind of initiatives and aspect hustles and issues that they love to do. However IT’s not simply gifted to them. They’ve architected that. They’ve actually labored arduous at that, you recognize, and IT takes time.

Renata Bernarde (28:58)
All proper. Let’s swap gears, Donna, and discuss concerning the gender stability or lack of. IT’s nice to see that there was a lift in ladies involved in interim govt roles. So 19 % in 2011 and now 33 % in 2025. So we’ve grown. I’m assuming that a part of that development has been the truth that extra ladies are in senior positions since

Donna Burr (29:01)
Mm.

Renata Bernarde (29:28)
we’re trying on the prime tier professionals right here. However do you additionally see extra ladies involved in interim govt versus everlasting roles?

Donna Burr (29:30)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, so I believe IT’s two issues. Sure, societal shifts. you recognize, I believe interim as an employment stream and as a approach of working, be IT everlasting roles or others, is impacted by the societal shifts that we’re seeing round gender and have seen round gender over the variety of years. I’d say after I have a look at the information, we noticed an actual uptick in ladies opting into this manner of working post-COVID. ⁓

And once more, loads of anecdotal ⁓ causes for that. the pliability {that a} tech enabled approach of working was actually amplified at that time limit, actually assisted many ladies in making the transition, with the ability to multitask and do a variety ⁓ of ⁓ commitments, if you happen to like, work being one in every of them on the time. So we noticed an actual uptick round then. ⁓

And look, yeah, completely. assume as we’re seeing extra ladies societally ⁓ shifting to see candy roles once more, that may play its half right here. ⁓ I don’t assume there’s obstacles per se. I believe we’re hopeful simply trying on the information that there will likely be kind of parity in these numbers as we get nearer to 2040. That’s simply kind of following the development line as we undergo. To be frank, what I believe goes to be extra of a possibility that’s ⁓

candidates and organisations have to embrace is the inclusion half. So, you recognize, I believe we’ll all agree variety in all types, gender being an enormous a part of IT on the C-suite goes to yield higher outcomes for companies and organisations commercially, in society and so forth. However as we take into consideration 5 generations within the workforce, as we take into consideration a workforce that’s ageing properly, so an extended Health span, you recognize,

on common that the individuals have people who find themselves selecting to work later in life, partly for motivation and private satisfaction, partly for cash and wish that we’ll have to assume otherwise as a society about how we embrace these varied generations and assist individuals working for longer within the workforce. I believe, you recognize, I believe gender stability, sure,

You understand, one factor I really feel like society’s made loads of shifts as IT pertains to gender. assume that equally applies within the interim house. I believe an even bigger factor for us to deal with there’s going to be round inclusion.

Renata Bernarde (32:09)
Fascinating. And speaking about inclusion and longevity, one other large change since 2011 is age. You understand, IT has doubled the variety of interim executives that at the moment are over 60, 60 and above. And that has been a present dialog with different visitors. You understand, the truth that CEOs at the moment are…

Donna Burr (32:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (32:37)
older and we now have older senior professionals staying for longer within the office. That’s nice. imply, as a technology X, you’re a technology X as properly. I’ve all the time identified that I wouldn’t be capable of afford retiring at 50 like my father did. So I believe that we’re seeing that. Do you assume additionally there’s, you recognize, we’re more healthy than we’ve ever been?

Donna Burr (32:50)
Sure.

Sure.

Renata Bernarde (33:05)
I imply, I’m speaking about you, you’re positively more healthy than I’m. So inform me about these wonderful interning executives which might be over 60. What kind of roles they’re getting with Watermark? What are they involved in? What’s working for them?

Donna Burr (33:08)
This can be a ardour space of mine for certain, yep.

Yeah,

yeah. IT’s a terrific query. assume IT builds on what we’re kind of saying about this attention-grabbing demographic we now have available in the market now. are very a lot skewed to the over 50 cohort, 60 plus cohort available in the market ⁓ working, ⁓ but in addition at a time the place we now have…

Health Technology that helps individuals being extra knowledgeable about their wellbeing and permits them extra methods to stay properly for longer. So enchancment in Health span. so, you recognize, many individuals who select this as their plan are doing quite a few issues. One, we nearly have this sort of audit of their life stock, if you happen to like. So funds are one factor, Health and wellness is one other factor. ⁓

being actually clear round their function, ardour, what’s significant work. These individuals now not select to work or are outlined by position. In order that they’ve sort of parked ego on the door. Now’s about being actually clear on their talent base and what worth that they will add to a corporation. So I believe, you recognize, once more, good timing the place we’ve obtained organizations which might be turning into extra fluid, extra agile.

much less inflexible about roles, however actually now clear on this kind of expertise economic system, what are the talents that they want for the longer term. IT’s an ideal pairing for our interim govt cohort who’re very clear concerning the talent set that they sort of carry to the desk. You understand, what you’re additionally getting whenever you herald an interim govt is, you recognize, these 40 years of expertise, management expertise, crucial considering.

how they reply in a disaster, an agile and adaptable approach of working, drawback fixing that’s refined and has seen loads of issues. so IT’s that that shoppers are tapping into. assume, interim’s once more, IT’s a stage of life. There’s a motivation to take company of how the subsequent, or what I name the third act performs out for them.

⁓ And I’m having a number of conversations each different day with individuals who’ve hit that time. And IT involves me, or the dialog will begin like, I wanna hold working, I really feel properly and wholesome, I’m actively taking company over my Health, wellbeing, I’m in a lucky ⁓ monetary place the place…

I nonetheless have to earn cash, however I don’t have kind of college charges, mortgages and a few of these different monetary burdens you do as you’re going by different phases of life. And now I wanna take possession and work differently. I wanna proceed working into my seventies or eighties, however I select to try this on completely different phrases. So the motivation for shifting this manner is often that. IT’s a specific stage. IT’s a mirrored image on…

broader life, ⁓ that means function, including worth, clearly being rewarded for that, however the driver isn’t about being busy essentially for 12 months of the yr working. For some IT is, completely, however, and once more, as we already referred to, how busy you’re will depend upon how lively you select to be round your networking, however for a lot of, IT’s a motivation to…

to see out kind of the subsequent 20 years of their profession differently.

Renata Bernarde (37:00)
Yeah. Okay. And searching on the outcomes from the survey, which was performed in Australia, have you ever and the group, have you ever been in a position to have a look at that compared to what you recognize about what’s occurring abroad in interim govt ⁓ administration? What belongings you assume are the identical and what’s kind of very Australian that you just don’t see in worldwide information?

Donna Burr (37:07)
Sure.

Mmm.

Yeah,

loads of synergies abroad. we, Watermark are affiliated with a worldwide community of interim govt practices. And positively within the final six months, I’ve had conversations with our Italian, French and Spanish counterparts simply to know slightly bit extra about their market and what does the interim govt providing appear like? What are shoppers ⁓ tapping into there? What’s the motivation and drivers for ⁓

executives to decide on to work that approach. Plenty of similarities. From a consumer perspective, IT completely ⁓ is round transformation and alter. ⁓ For the intrams themselves, IT completely is that this motivation round a stage of life. ⁓ Clearly, the dimensions of market in Europe, UK, US is bigger than Australia, so the market there’s larger. ⁓ However I believe the alerts and the expansion of this manner of working

IT’s a worldwide, IT’s not an Australian primarily based phenomenon, if you happen to like, we’re following the lead of the opposite nations. However I believe, as I mentioned earlier, 46 % of the world work in a contingent approach. After I delve deeper into what kind of share of those that are working in a contingent approach actually sit extra on the govt finish, IT’s most likely about 10 % of that

10 % of that group. So simply to kind of give a way however from a worldwide perspective loads of similarities.

Renata Bernarde (39:05)
Yeah, one factor that I used to be actually shocked speaking concerning the stage of the roles for interim as X. I used to be actually shocked that IT’s actually 90 % of interim roles which might be C-suite. I assumed that there have been extra heads of as properly. Perhaps, you recognize, I did a brief time period contract with you and your group again in 2020 simply earlier than the pandemic. And I bear in mind heads of roles coming.

Donna Burr (39:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (39:33)
in. Are they not as frequent as of late?

Donna Burr (39:36)
So I suppose simply to preface, that is the Australian market information versus the place Watermark performs, there’s loads of similarities, however actually of the 900 who responded to this survey, 90 % of the placements they had been doing had been on the C-suite. And I believe the driving force for that’s once more, the shift that’s occurring inside group and this longing for management that is ready to drive digital transformation that may

⁓ lead by ambiguity, is adaptable, is agile. ⁓ You understand, there’s a robust governance and regulatory overlay throughout many sectors for the time being. So someone who can sort of steer the ship by that. Usually that comes at that C-suite stage, be IT CEO stage or across the desk. And if these are the problems which might be tackling kind of companies in the present day, I believe there’s a direct hyperlink then in the event that they’re shopping for that for a brief time frame, IT is smart that IT’s at that stage. ⁓

Definitely inside Watermark, a lot of our information would mirror that. We most likely can also faucet into that subsequent stage. So the top of director stage relying, and once more, IT is determined by the dimensions and scale of group too. We most likely extra faucet right into a wage band versus simply the title. However yeah, I’m not shocked that 90 % of the roles had been C-suite, {that a} quarter of these had been CEO roles, given the varieties of issues that

shoppers are coming to us for.

Renata Bernarde (41:07)
Received IT. Okay. Now, if we’re interested by listeners who usually are not C-suite professionals, however they need the portfolio profession way of life, what are the opposite avenues for them? So I’m assuming, properly, for you, perhaps Watermark Worldwide will not be the suitable avenue for you. Would IT be freelancing? Would IT be working with recruiters that do short-term contracts, private community? Are you able to give ⁓ some recommendation for professionals?

Donna Burr (41:12)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, yeah.

I believe the entire above and all of these channels, I believe whenever you’re selecting to work in a portfolio approach, IT’s being actually strategic concerning the channels to market that you’ve got that align to, you recognize, no matter your space of experience is. So that may look slightly bit completely different for, you recognize, if you happen to’re, I don’t know, in Finance versus if you happen to’re within the kind of graphics and media, for example. ⁓

However I believe the issues which might be consistency, self-agency, imply, you recognize, do a self-check there, what’s your motivation for working this manner? Or I say you’re working in direction of this as a approach of working and why, or are you working from one thing and perhaps sort of spend a while understanding and fixing for that first. Networking key, ⁓ figuring out fan golf equipment, advocates, your new channels, being fairly, you recognize, focused round mapping that out ⁓ is one thing to be. ⁓

you recognize, interested by and even when this isn’t a, you recognize, I’m not shifting to this proper now, however you recognize, I may see sooner or later, that is one thing I’m interested by. Now’s the time to begin interested by that, you recognize, when you’re in a job, when you’ve obtained revenue, when you’ve obtained work, take into consideration the way you may method this. I imply, now’s the very best time to be doing that. However networking is one. Proceed to seek out experiences that basically refine your EVP. What are the talents? What are the issues? Do a listing of your expertise? What are the issues that you just take pleasure in doing?

⁓ And never solely what you take pleasure in doing, however the market desires to purchase and clearly, you recognize, that may ebb and move over time, however the networking and worth proposition could be once more, two of the lead indicators. I believe if you happen to’ve obtained that down pat, ⁓ you recognize, plus your why, like something, you recognize, this will get arduous. So what are you going to return again and anchor to when IT will get actually, actually arduous is your why. So being actually clear on why you’re kind of working to this as a approach of working.

Renata Bernarde (43:28)
Sure. And I believe a part of that, ⁓ that mixture of issues that that you must begin together with in your profession technique is AI. You talked about that a number of occasions. I observed that your colleague has written an article in the present day on LinkedIn about IT. I’m going to place a hyperlink within the present notes ⁓ so that individuals can discover IT. However AI as a management amplifier, I really like that time period.

I would like you to elucidate what meaning. I imply, I’m considering that IT’s apparent that the interim executives which might be working with Watermark at the moment are utilizing AI instruments as a result of, know, 90 % of interim executives that responded to the survey are utilizing AI instruments. I’m nonetheless encountering executives and skilled professionals that attain out to me for profession teaching and I begin working with them and so they don’t even have.

Donna Burr (43:59)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (44:27)
a chat to BT account but, so I nonetheless have them and bless them, however we have to kind of educate ourselves earlier than we return into the workforce into one other position we have to. Having mentioned that, the report reveals that solely 3 % of organizations have adopted AI. So there’s this discrepancy about individualization of the AI expertise versus

Donna Burr (44:38)
Yeah.

Completely.

Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (44:56)
incorporation of AI within the enterprise. Clarify that to me. How does that translate?

Donna Burr (44:59)
Sure.

Yep.

So a few issues, very, I’m very, very personally enthusiastic about AI and really curious and discover a number of methods to include that in my everyday. However to reply a few belongings you’ve mentioned, one, how is, you recognize, this time period of AI amplifying our interim executives, how? I’d say actually in 3 ways. One is completely a productiveness piece. So they’re utilizing AI to do a few of the extra administrative ⁓

duties, writing a primary minimize ⁓ piece of labor for them that kind of will get IT 80 % proper. ⁓ IT could possibly be so simple as diary administration and utilizing AI to sort of automate that. ⁓ A spread of automation instruments so they’re spending extra of their time on the issues which might be vital, the crucial considering, the judgment, the human aspect, and I’ll come again to that in a second.

I believe one of many key issues is best resolution making. So loads of examples the place AI is getting used to synthesize massive quantities of information, which we all know these massive language fashions can do this higher than we people will ever be capable of do this. However actually to synthesize a complete lot of Information to present enter into choices and discussions. IT doesn’t take away the human aspect of getting a dialog, of getting the crucial considering of creating the choice.

however IT is getting used as an enter right into a decision-making device. Utilizing AI to be a critiquer of labor that has been written, IT to be, utilizing IT to kind of choose holes in a thought course of, in a mission plan. A complete lot of ingenious ways in which they’re utilizing prompts to ⁓ get the standard of the work, the choices they’re making higher. So positively,

boosting productiveness, one, guess, high quality of resolution making, however two, them with the ability to go into these organizations due to their curiosity, due to their exploration of IT, to speed up sort of the digital transformation journey. Are they the tech individuals implementing new Technology? No, however what organizations are needing are leaders who will be digitally savvy, who can assist drive, you recognize, completely different ⁓ behaviors and experimentation and so forth.

To reply your final query there round this disconnect between 90 % of the executives saying that they’re utilizing AI, however then in organizations, about 3 % solely adopting. I believe the place we’re, my commentary is, is people experimenting and constructing their very own AI proficiency with instruments. And that’s sort of occurring at work, at house. What organizations are attempting to grapple with is

⁓ how do they then harness this practising, this effectivity that’s being created for good. So the place are the productiveness positive factors doubtlessly that the organisation are benefiting from individuals doing this? The place’s the innovation, the brand new concepts, the creativity supposedly that’s alleged to be coming from the spare time that we now have? I believe that’s the place the grapple is and I believe that’s the disconnect. So I believe we’ll most likely see over the subsequent 12 months.

you recognize, leaders who’re extra digitally savvy being on the desk to assist organizations harness now what people are doing individually to experiment, you recognize, enhance decision-making, enhance productiveness, however how now we will scale that out throughout the group. And what does that appear like? I imply, that is ⁓ sort of new territory, I believe, for many organizations and leaders.

Renata Bernarde (48:52)
Yeah, that’s a terrific dialog. I’m simply considering of a brand new episode nearly that. As a result of, we’re, you recognize, this technology that we’re going by this wonderful fast change, every part adjustments a lot on a regular basis. However what we haven’t been capable of do is the optimization of our methods and the way in which that we work and ⁓ understanding that.

Donna Burr (48:58)
Yeah, sure.

Renata Bernarde (49:19)
⁓ I’m interested by hybrid work as properly and the truth that there was a lot pushback on hybrid work, whereas there’s simply loads of advantages as properly that individuals simply usually are not seeing but. I don’t assume that there’s a approach again from hybrid work or distant work. assume that we at the moment are simply the pushback is ⁓ simply quaint considering that must be ⁓ up to date.

Donna Burr (49:32)
Sure.

Renata Bernarde (49:48)
and AI and optimization of methods and constructions with machine studying, with ⁓ Technology is what we want to consider as properly for our future. IT will likely be ⁓ approach higher for company professionals after we do ⁓ consider IT as ⁓ enhancing quite than taking away. ⁓

Donna Burr (50:14)
Yeah,

IT’s most likely the factor. In fact IT does have its dangers and to the dangers half, IT’s most likely the, if I look ahead the subsequent 15 years, might be, AI might be the factor that excites me essentially the most concerning the alternative that we now have individually, but in addition in organizations and as a society might be the factor that scares me essentially the most as a result of there are such a lot of unknowns.

Renata Bernarde (50:16)
To not say that IT doesn’t have its dangers, Donna, however I do know IT does.

Sure, sure, I can.

Donna Burr (50:43)
However to your level, IT’s right here, assume the speed and tempo of change will solely be restricted by us people. I believe the Technology is there, IT’s how rapidly we will undertake and adapt and select to. ⁓ And we’re all the time coping with human feelings and ⁓ fears and hopes as we’re doing this. IT’s, know, buckle in, say, I believe IT’ll be an attention-grabbing experience.

Renata Bernarde (51:11)
Donna, I really like doing episodes about interim govt administration with you, along with your colleagues at Watermark. I’ve performed IT with worldwide interim govt recruiters as properly from the US. And I really like IT as a result of IT simply helps me a lot with my teaching. You understand, I simply have to ship a playlist each time a consumer says, ⁓ I’m on this.

And I say, okay, earlier than we even discuss IT, simply take heed to this episode with Donna, this one and that one. However the motive why I’ve to do IT and you’ll relate to this, I’m certain, is that lots of people leap into interim govt work, not realizing what IT is. if you happen to may go away ⁓ the listeners with one piece of a demise earlier than they make… ⁓

Donna Burr (51:52)
Sure.

Renata Bernarde (52:04)
the change to interim govt or contact you about IT, what would you say to them that may assist them make that call?

Donna Burr (52:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, you recognize, most likely a few issues, perhaps two issues. assume one is, you recognize, be curious. assume, you recognize, examine, discover out Information. One, all the time ⁓ converse to you, you recognize, converse to us, learn up about IT. There’s Information there. We’ve obtained loads of thought management on the subject. So be curious, have an interest. ⁓ Secondly, be intentional. I actually come again to why and after we…

Renata Bernarde (52:15)
Okay.

Donna Burr (52:41)
you recognize, that kind of ask why 5 occasions to get to the true root motive why somebody is working away from or in direction of one thing. Typically I discover individuals are working away from one thing that they haven’t loved and IT was arduous and really feel that doubtlessly this will likely be simpler or completely different. I who wouldn’t wish to work for six or seven months of the yr and do a few of their aspect hustles and journey, however IT doesn’t simply occur. IT requires self company and intention and planning to make that occur. So.

⁓ I believe be curious and discover out Information, actually be intentional. So query your why and be told to only kind of making that call. Get the suitable mentors and assist round you to kind of provide help to with these choices.

Renata Bernarde (53:24)
Superior. Donna, thanks a lot. I’ll put a hyperlink to the report within the present notes that individuals can go learn IT. IT’s a terrific learn and IT’s been great speaking to you.

Donna Burr (53:26)

Thanks for having me right here. I really like our partnership and ⁓ all the time enjoyable to return and spend a while chatting with you. And clearly this time sharing our survey within the fifteenth yr of information. So thanks.