Job Search Insights from Ambition CEO Nick Waterworth

Renata Bernarde (01:04)
Nick, I’m delighted that you just and I are having this chat. I believe that ⁓ your organization, Ambition, is such an excellent ⁓ Australian success story and IT’s such a giant milestone right here for Ambition as properly. So I’ve so many questions for you. You noticed I despatched you some, however I’m delighted that you just’re right here.

And I work loads together with your crew. I like working with the Melbourne crew.

Nick Waterworth (01:35)
Okay, nice. Kylie or who are you aware down in Melbourne?

Renata Bernarde (01:39)
I do know Kylie, however I undoubtedly have labored extra with watermark. ⁓

Nick Waterworth (01:44)
Okay,

Jacinta and Donna. Okay, nice, nice. ⁓ So simply earlier than we begin, simply so I’m, once more, to be clear, the listeners are primarily job seekers. Properly, they’re job seekers.

Renata Bernarde (01:58)
They’re job seekers. I do know that when they get Jobs, they often stick with it listening as a result of the episodes should not essentially about job searching. They could be about management. They could be about the way forward for work. In order that they are usually very loyal listeners. Many individuals inform me that they hear each week.

Nick Waterworth (02:18)
Okay,

and geographically, I believe IT was about half within the US?

Renata Bernarde (02:23)
Sure, half within the US. I’d say that IT’s most likely about 40 % within the US, 40 % in Australia, after which the remainder, IT’s often UK and Europe and a few Asia.

Nick Waterworth (02:35)
Okay,

all proper. Okay, that’s good. Good to know.

Renata Bernarde (02:39)
Thanks. Thanks. All proper. So we’re very informal right here ⁓ and we begin often most of my company are like, have we began but? And the thought is actually for you and I to have a dialog as a result of I’m tremendous curious. After which for the listeners to be like a fly on the wall and simply listening in and type of absorbing as a lot Information as doable. So.

I like the truth that ambition is such an excellent success story for Australia. And I like that you just’re right here with us as a result of a variety of the listeners and my purchasers, that are a small proportion of our listeners, inform me IT’s tougher and tougher to speak to recruiters today. So I actually need to ask you a variety of questions on that. However let’s begin with you first, Nick. When did you understand recruitment was a profession that you just needed to stay with?

Nick Waterworth (03:35)
So like most likely lots of people, I actually fell into recruitment. ⁓ So I left college with a really unhealthy economics diploma and actually didn’t know what I needed to do. Aside from if I used to be going to do a ⁓ profession job, IT was going to be in London. So I used to be making use of for a couple of roles and… ⁓

was being interviewed by this recruitment firm. And I actually truthfully didn’t perceive what IT was, however they appear good folks. And every week or so later, they supplied me a job. And so I believed, properly, IT’s in London. I nonetheless haven’t fairly found out what they do, however IT’s in London. So I’ll go. So I began with this fairly uncommon small recruitment firm within the Strand in London. And ⁓

So I actually fell into IT and was so fortunate that I fell into one thing that fits my persona. ⁓ You understand, I like the truth that IT’s obtained form of black and white outcomes. You understand, you’re profitable on an task otherwise you’re not. ⁓ And more and more over time, I’ve preferred the very fact. So our type of mission in our firm is constructing higher futures. And that’s real. In order that’s not only a assertion on a wall.

And I actually like the truth that we’re a business entity. We’re a for-profit enterprise, however IT so occurs we’re serving to with people construct their careers and other people construct their groups. So these two issues, I suppose, collided. IT fits my persona and this mission. ⁓ Actually, actually, ⁓ that tickles me, for those who like. I actually like that.

Renata Bernarde (05:21)
Nick, what’s IT concerning the UK and nice recruiters? As a result of even the Australian recruiters which are nice, they’ve spent a while within the UK working as recruiters or they began their careers there after which moved again. What’s within the waters within the UK that makes recruitment such an attention-grabbing profession?

Nick Waterworth (05:43)
So IT’s the third largest recruitment market on this planet following the US and Japan. So IT’s an enormous market and has been a fairly large marketplace for 30 years, most likely. ⁓ guess, secondly, the companies sector within the UK ⁓ has been a giant employer for a protracted, very long time, whether or not that’s insurance coverage or the regulation or on this case, recruitment. So I believe for

younger professionals. know, in current occasions, there isn’t a giant mining sector within the UK, manufacturing has been getting smaller. So there may be this empathy with the companies sector and recruitment is, you recognize, a part of part of that. So, so I suppose these are these are a few issues that come to thoughts that IT is, IT’s such a giant business, and people who find themselves not born to be a physician or

one thing like that, fairly a couple of of them both intentionally or in my case by luck drift in the direction of recruitment simply due to the dimensions of the sector and this acceptance of, I believe the previous time period that I discovered at college was invisibles, we’re not manufacturing one thing. So I believe that’s most likely why.

Renata Bernarde (06:59)
Yeah. And, and, you recognize, that was again in 1999 that you just began Ambition, proper? So IT’s been 25 years. 26, you’re proper. How does, how does 99 compares to 2025 within the recruitment business?

Nick Waterworth (07:10)
26 years now.

We might most likely do an entire podcast on that. There’s any variety of issues I might choose on. One, I suppose, is the massive vary of applied sciences which are in play, ⁓ a lot of which, however not all of which, are very helpful. ⁓ What that does do for folks, for instance, working in our firm,

is IT signifies that Information is coming at them in quantity and from a stack of various sources. Going again to me, drifting into this little recruitment firm on the Strand, ⁓ there have been two ways in which candidates might contact us. They might carry us or they might submit one thing in snail mail. That was IT. ⁓ You understand, you’ve now obtained such an array of

applied sciences. I suppose that’s one of many massive variations. And due to that Technology, issues have gotten a lot quicker. The tempo of issues is fairly full on. And for those who’re not within the tempo, you’re not within the sport. So guess these are a few issues that come to thoughts.

Renata Bernarde (08:47)
Yeah, I had a enterprise in 1999, Nick, and I offered IT as a result of I freaked out concerning the web. I mentioned, that’s IT. No person will want my companies anymore. IT was a journey enterprise. I had a journey company. I employed about 5 folks on the time, something between 5 and 7, relying on the season. And I obtained afraid of Technology. And the humorous factor is

The journey company continues to be there. I offered IT to my workers and so they’re nonetheless operating IT. And now we’re in that comparable scenario the place we’re so afraid of AI. Is IT going to take our Jobs? Will they nonetheless want folks like me? And IT has additionally modified loads the recruitment ⁓ setting as properly. How is ambition adjusting to that change?

Nick Waterworth (09:43)
So let me contact on a few issues. imply, initially, after we began Ambition again in 99, know, the web actually was nonetheless just about in its infancy. ⁓ However there was a member of phrase that was being banded round, which was disintermediation. And a variety of ⁓ publications akin to ⁓

⁓ quick folks and, and so forth, talked concerning the loss of life knell of the brokers due to this disintermediation. However then fairly shortly, there was one other phrase, which was, properly, we talked concerning the loss of life knell of the brokers, however one thing occurred on the best way to the funeral. And what occurred on the best way to the funeral was folks realized they need service. Now that is going again. This isn’t speaking about AI. I’ll in a second, however, however that’s what

occurred is that ⁓ the Web 1.0 might do a number of issues, however IT wasn’t nice at offering service. In order that’s the very first thing. The second factor, if I’d particularly in journey, as a result of this was a little bit of a second for me. So that is going again to 2015. And IT’s a journey story. I journey loads internationally.

So I prefer to suppose I do know a bit about journey and the best way to get round and flights and motels and so forth. Barely perversely, was at a convention in Hamilton Island in Australia and the convention completed on a Sunday and I wanted to get to Hong Kong that night. In order that might be proper. Left is the final minute, however I’ll try the flights. And I couldn’t determine IT out.

I’m on-line, I’m attempting this and I’m attempting that, however I couldn’t do IT. I couldn’t get there by Sunday night. So I phoned my journey agent 10, 11 years in the past, 10 years in the past, a man referred to as Mark who I nonetheless use and defined the issue, mentioned, I don’t suppose I can do IT. You understand, what’s the following greatest various? Click on, click on. He mentioned, IT’s straightforward. You go from Hamilton Island to Cairns and there’s a flight from Cairns, Hong Kong. IT was straightforward as a result of that’s his experience.

Regardless of my expertise in touring, I couldn’t determine that out. In two minutes, we’re sorted, we’re booked, and I’m in Hong Kong as I wanted to be. That’s the trusted advisor. That’s the experience that causes one thing to occur on the best way to the funeral. ⁓ In order that’s a type of lengthy reply, the primary a part of your query. ⁓ So.

Possibly you need to have offered your journey agent. Possibly you shouldn’t. However IT’s nice to listen to they’re nonetheless going. suppose that’s, and you recognize, run and owned by the workers. That’s a fairly cool story. ⁓ So far as AI goes, ⁓ like just about any recruitment firm, like most corporations, ⁓ we’re closely concerned with AI. ⁓ We completely haven’t discovered ⁓

all of the solutions by any means. ⁓ However a few factors. One is that ⁓ throughout the entire group, each member of workers, we’ve obtained 260, 270 workers, ⁓ each member of workers is charged with serving to us alongside the AI journey. And I’ve form of implored folks and besieged folks and we’ve accomplished a number of coaching to

get folks to know that it is a journey we’ve to go on and What I’ve mentioned and imply is that this won’t end in us using fewer folks IT will change each single job within the firm however our plan is to make the Jobs extra attention-grabbing extra stimulating extra brainpower and to take the much less brainpower extra boring bits and automate ⁓ These have these accomplished by AI. So in the intervening time that’s that’s

our mission. A few different factors on AI. One is our CIO relies in Hong Kong. ⁓ He’s Australian skilled who’s primarily based in our Hong Kong workplace. ⁓ During the last two years, we’ve in any diploma of seriousness, we’ve most likely trialed 15 or 20 completely different AI instruments. The majority of them have been both delivering not what’s on the bundle,

So IT says on the bundle, we are able to do X and really get into IT. And IT’s not excellent at doing X or alternatively IT can do X, however IT says IT can do X for Y {dollars}. Really IT’s two occasions Y {dollars}. Typically you may say, that’s okay. However typically you suppose that’s simply, that’s an excessive amount of cash. And so there’s a variety of, self promotion by the distributors. Understandably, that’s what I’d do in that sneakers, however

In actuality, numerous the instruments should not but both what’s on the bundle or truly commercially viable. So we’re discovering that. Having mentioned that, the second level is that we’ve simply gone dwell on a brand new CRM all over the world. And the rationale we’ve moved is as a result of the brand new platform is rather more AI pleasant.

I don’t suppose we’d have moved in any other case. ⁓ The earlier platform wasn’t good, however was OK. ⁓ However IT was not proving very versatile from an AI plug-in standpoint. And this new platform, we’re early days, ⁓ goes to be rather more versatile, rather more user-friendly. So we’re all in. ⁓

with a little bit of diploma of skepticism that in the intervening time, not all of the merchandise can do essentially what they are saying, however some do and they’re going to proceed to enhance fairly quick. we’re very a lot in. ⁓ Possibly I needs to be scared, however I’m not. I’m a glass half full individual, that’s for certain. I’m nice believer in human ingenuity.

I discussed earlier, I got here out with a really unhealthy financial historical past diploma. One of many issues I studied was the Luddites and spinning jenneys and the way some folks have been displaced. inside a really quick interval, many, many extra folks have been employed within the UK within the textile business than had ever been employed earlier than the arrival of Technology. perhaps there might be a interval of displacement.

I believe a number of the doomsayers are most likely speaking that up perhaps an excessive amount of. ⁓ Every little thing’s going to vary, that’s for certain. ⁓ However I’m not essentially certain that every one of IT might be unhealthy. I don’t suppose IT might be. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (17:19)
I actually like the instance you’ve given about using Technology and new methods of working. I believe within the historical past within the UK, there’s a number of examples of that. ⁓ One which I final 12 months spoke about after I was addressing a boardroom of ⁓ chief HR places of work in Melbourne, and we have been speaking about hybrid work environments. And I used to be explaining to them ⁓

a administration principle referred to as social Technology principle. And one of many examples ⁓ that I discovered, enterprise instances that I discovered at college about IT was from the mining sector again within the 30s once they have been changing shovels with massive ⁓ equipment that may then

do the excavation. And that was so disruptive that IT decreased the productiveness of the mines as a result of IT broke down the social material of the mines. despite the fact that IT’s slower to only dig issues up from the bottom, IT was truly a really social factor to do. And abruptly staff weren’t joyful that they weren’t capable of speak to one another anymore. So the productiveness

took a deep dive after which IT went up once more when folks lastly obtained round the truth that that’s how minds have been going to work from that time onwards. And I believe that that’s what hybrid work had accomplished as properly. You understand, like, ⁓ we’re not, you recognize, seeing our groups anymore. How can we handle folks after we’re not seeing them? ⁓ However I don’t suppose that there’s any approach across the new methods of working. How are you discovering?

your purchasers, the employers are adjusting to those type of new methods of working now with the arrival of hybrid work and other people desirous to work extra flexibly. Is that one thing that’s troublesome to barter when the time involves, you recognize, give presents to one of the best candidates?

Nick Waterworth (19:23)
Undoubtedly, could be troublesome for certain as a result of we’re in an setting the place some employers, some small variety of employers are completely distant. A lot have embraced hybrid. However the different finish of the spectrum, you’ve obtained some which are getting fairly insistent on perhaps even 5 days every week within the workplace. So earlier than I discuss what I take into consideration that,

by way of the truth for job seekers and making matches, that’s definitely inflicting some ⁓ friction ⁓ and a few conditions the place this job, in principle, is ideal for this candidate, besides that the job is insistent on 4 days every week within the workplace and the candidate’s very uncertain about that. In order that’s

may cause some marriages to interrupt aside due to the distinction between what the employer believes they want and what the worker is prepared to supply. So IT’s one other problem, that’s for certain. And apparently, in our group, what we’re discovering is that essentially the most skillful recruiters

deal with these points head on early within the course of. In order that they get only a few surprises on the finish when IT comes out that we want you within the workplace 4 days every week. All people already is aware of that and so they’ve certified and so forth. A number of the maybe much less skilled folks perhaps steer away from that after which they get a shock on the finish which might be not good for them, not good for his or her purchasers and could be disappointing for the candidate. So IT’s

IT’s one other issue that pre-COVID was a tiny issue. Now IT’s an on a regular basis ⁓ a part of the material, a part of the panorama for certain.

Renata Bernarde (21:34)
Nick, I’ve solely been teaching full time because the pandemic. So I began in 2020 ⁓ and I’ve seen the market fluctuate loads by way of provide demand of candidates and Jobs. Proper. The place do you suppose we’re proper now in September 2025 in that provide demand ratio?

Nick Waterworth (21:57)
IT’s inconceivable to provide one reply as a result of for those who’re in New York working in authorized advertising and marketing, IT’s a really completely different world to for those who’re working in Kuala Lumpur in provide chain. So however, I’ll attempt to give a solution. So we’re in an uncommon setting in that many of the developed world has just about full employment.

⁓ So in order for you work, you’ve obtained work. ⁓ That’s definitely the case right here in Australia, ⁓ et cetera. ⁓ Nonetheless, ⁓ candidates are fairly nervous, ⁓ whether or not they’re apprehensive about inflation, ⁓ the geopolitical scenario. They’re not.

For the time being, they’re not cavalier about their careers. In 2022, all people was cavalier about their careers. Everybody needed a brand new job. And for those who needed a job, you went and obtained one since you have been invincible. And each employer was hiring. ⁓ We’re now, ⁓ you recognize, we’re not technically anyway in a recessionary setting, however the headspace of candidates could be very completely different. ⁓

So we’ve all heard 100 tales about, you recognize, an ambition recruitment advisor posting a job or an inner expertise acquisition specialist posting a job and receiving 500 responses. We’ve all heard, you recognize, a thousand of these tales. The very fact is that perhaps you’ve obtained 500 responses when you could have a correct look. There are literally solely three candidates who look correctly attention-grabbing.

⁓ and in order that turns into from a giant pool, IT’s truly not likely a giant pool, IT turns into fairly a small pool, and whenever you get into IT of these three candidates IT might be that on additional investigation two will get spooked, IT’s not fairly what I anticipated and you recognize what I believe I’ll keep put. So fairly shortly you could be down to at least one individual. So ⁓ for those who checked out some uncooked information from a number of the job boards by way of numbers of acquis…

purposes. That can inform you that IT’s a candidate wealthy setting.

IT relies upon whether or not you need people who find themselves employable or not. If you would like folks which are employable, IT’s in lots of areas, IT’s exhausting to search out one of the best candidates as a result of many of the greatest, not all, many of the greatest candidates are in Jobs and are a bit cautious. In order that’s a long-winded reply to say the place we’re at is IT’s complicated. We’re neither in growth occasions or recession occasions.

⁓ And there are, you recognize, white collar staff who can’t discover work, sadly, significantly, ⁓ perhaps folks over 50. Once more, that’s an entire nother matter. ⁓ However however, ⁓ securing one of the best authorized advertising and marketing individual in New York, provide chain individual in KL or cyber safety individual in Melbourne.

is a problem, IT’s not a stroll within the park.

Renata Bernarde (25:30)
Nick, I’d love to speak concerning the over 50s as a result of I’m over 50 and plenty of of my purchasers are over 50. I lately spoke to 2 headhunters from the US, their experience is ⁓ hospitals and pharma and med tech. They usually have been saying, look, 20, 30 years in the past, we wouldn’t dare carry a candidate over 50.

for a CEO place, now IT’s so widespread and so widespread to increase your profession and have these ambitions at 60 and above. How are employers accepting extra mature skilled professionals and what do you could do to increase the lifespan of your profession?

Nick Waterworth (26:27)
Once more, I want there was one reply, however let me provide you with a few thought bubbles. one of many happenings in our world ⁓ is we’ve change into very energetic in senior stage interim administration assignments. So right here I’m speaking about ⁓ advertising and marketing administrators, some CEOs,

a variety of CFOs, Chief Individuals Officers, so C-suite ⁓ assignments. And this has change into, so we’ve been energetic on this for 15 years. The final six or so, ⁓ IT’s actually change into highly regarded with employers. And employers don’t desire a 30-year-old to do this work. What they need,

is any person who’s seen a lot of cycles, who’s form of seen IT all earlier than. ⁓ And in lots of instances, what they need, and I heard this phrase from one in every of our interims a couple of years in the past, what they’re searching for is any person who’s obtained no previous with their group and no future. In order that they’re a employed gun to do that transformation, combine this acquisition, no matter IT could be.

and so they haven’t been there earlier than, to allow them to’t say, properly, round right here, that is the best way we do this, as a result of they don’t know. And in most likely 80 % of the instances, they’re not searching for a everlasting job, in order that they’ve obtained no future with the group. So on this interim world, even when 30-year-olds have been out there, which largely they’re not, they’re not going to be the choose for the employers. They need that lack of hair.

or gray hair to do these assignments. In order that’s one constructive story. And really as a remaining snippet on interim, ⁓ round 1 / 4 of our interim assignments, our interim executives on task get transformed right into a everlasting position. So I believe the purpose about that’s these are critical folks. These should not individuals who can’t discover work. These are excellent executives.

who in say round 25 % of instances get requested to hitch completely by the employer. In order that’s, guess, one constructive story. A unfavourable story can be form of on the different finish of the spectrum. for a, let’s use some greenback phrases right here in Australia, know, a $150,000 type of mid-level Technology job,

know, for those who have been a candidate and also you have been actually joyful and eager to do this mid-level cyber job or no matter sort of position IT is and also you’re 52, sadly you’ll be confronted with ageism. ⁓ I don’t get IT. ⁓ Let me refine that remark barely. In lots of instances I don’t get that. In some instances I perceive the employer is trying to carry any person in

who in 10 years time might be their subsequent CIO. They’re searching for that actual, the possibility of longevity and uplift by way of the group. However in lots of instances, that basically doesn’t matter. And any person who’s skilled and has found out they don’t need to be a CIO or a chief govt. They need to do attention-grabbing work and be useful. That’s their factor. However they get knocked again as a result of the employer is on this mindset of

we’ve obtained to have a 28 12 months previous for that position. In order that’s the unhealthy and barely complicated information. And that’s not simply Australia. That occurs in loads of locations. yeah, in order I say, there’s type of some constructive bits and positively some unfavourable bits in that demographic.

Renata Bernarde (30:42)
I’d love to listen to extra from you about what your purchasers and employers have modified lately in the best way that they give thought to hiring and the type of developments that you just’re seeing and the way they’re. You understand the patterns, that come from seeing purchasers time and time once more and the type of issues that they’re asking. What’s coming throughout to you and your crew as patterns?

from the consumer facet.

Nick Waterworth (31:13)
I suppose essentially the most prevalent factor is a want to rent individuals who can take care of ambiguity ⁓ and individuals who don’t get burdened about the truth that tomorrow might be completely different from as we speak. And we are able to’t inform you what tomorrow will appear like. The employer chatting with the potential worker, you recognize, that is your job as we speak. Tomorrow, IT’ll virtually definitely be completely different and we don’t know what IT’ll be.

That’s taking place loads. ⁓ Various people like that, however loads don’t. A lot like routine and predictability. ⁓ And there may be nonetheless work for these folks. I think in two years or 5 years, there’ll most likely be much less of that.

predictable, not most likely, there might be much less of that predictable routine work. ⁓ However yeah, that’s one of many, ⁓ in each nation we function in type of all of the completely different areas is that this capability to take care of change, unpredictability and never simply change, tempo of change. That’s most likely the obvious factor that we’re seeing.

Renata Bernarde (32:39)
Possibly it is a query for any person out of your crew, like Kylie. ought to interview her sooner or later, however I’m questioning how that’s translated into the job adverts. Have you learnt how do you translate that into and the way do you discover folks? Is IT one thing that you would need to have a dialog with them to search out out and ask some conduct questions? I simply don’t see that coming throughout in job adverts, Nick.

Nick Waterworth (33:11)
The rationale I smile, after I, ⁓ all these years in the past, 45 years in the past, began out in recruitment, one in every of issues that I used to be taught is whenever you’re writing a job advert, actually all that issues is the job title, the placement, the wage, and the best way to apply. In between, you possibly can write, that is the worst job that exists in Melbourne, and also you’ll nonetheless get the identical candidates. Clearly, that’s tongue in cheek remark, however.

⁓ I’m not satisfied that the job that’s the level at which you do the screening. ⁓ IT’s the purpose at which you do the attracting, however the screening occurs afterward. So you possibly can write as a lot as you want. What I’m saying is you possibly can write on this level we’re discussing, you possibly can write a lot as you need about ambiguity. And the individuals who don’t like ambiguity will nonetheless apply. And possibly they need to.

since you by no means know, you recognize, go for an interview and see what occurs. ⁓ So, yeah, so I don’t suppose the job advert does that little bit of the method. That magic occurs a step or two afterward.

Renata Bernarde (34:27)
Sure, sure, I agree. And I don’t suppose that that could be a drawback that I’ve seen in Abition or Watermark. These are the type of job adverts that I look after I’m working with purchasers right here in Australia. However there are some job adverts, particularly within the US, which are so obscure, know, product administration Jobs, mission administration Jobs. And

the individual meets all the factors, applies and by no means hears again and that occurs time and time once more and the candidates really feel very uncertain about their means of ⁓ entering into a brand new place. And also you talked about earlier than these tons of of purposes that translate to the highest 10 and I believe that generally the job advert is just not serving to candidates.

establish if they’re a perfect candidate for that position or not. So the work that I do with them is like go and take a look at this firm, see who they’ve employed lately, you you should utilize LinkedIn for that, see the background of those people and do you suppose you match that comparable background ⁓ as a result of the job advert is so obscure. What do you make of that Nick? How will you assist ⁓ candidates higher perceive their probabilities?

Nick Waterworth (35:49)
That’s an excellent query. ⁓ I believe IT’s fairly exhausting at that early stage to make IT clear what folks’s likelihood is. However what you touched on is the very purpose that in Ambition’s case, within the center stage appointments, why we spend some huge cash and put a variety of effort into sustaining databases, as a result of

We would like that to be the supply of a lot of our placements, not merely the job advert. After which in Watermark’s case, the senior govt stage, we fairly hardly ever promote as a result of we need to perceive what the consumer is searching for. After which we’ll go and search for that as a result of IT is tough to precise and exhausting to tickle the correct fish by way of a job advert, however we are able to go and discover them. So

Job adverts is one small a part of the method. I completely perceive that IT generally is a very irritating a part of the method for candidates. ⁓ IT may also be for recruiters since you’ve laid out in your advert that you need to have X technical ability. 500 purposes are available and 4 have gotten X. I’m not criticizing the folks for making use of.

However so there are issues with job adverts for each candidates and company recruiters and certainly in-house expertise acquisition folks. Job adverts are difficult, beasts in some ways.

Renata Bernarde (37:36)
Sure, sure, I agree. And there are not any boundaries of entry for folks to use. That’s why you get so many purposes and that’s why so a lot of them aren’t.

Nick Waterworth (37:46)
And the boundaries have gone down as a result of, you recognize, for those who set issues up, you as a person candidate set issues up the correct approach, you possibly can apply for a thousand Jobs every week. And for those who’re searching for work, that’s most likely what you’ll do. ⁓ The possibilities of IT working, properly, who is aware of, however you possibly can definitely do this. ⁓ And so for, once more, for recruiters in that course of, that’s one thing of a nightmare.

⁓ So yeah, IT’s a job adverts are very, very troublesome factor. I all the time suppose.

Renata Bernarde (38:25)
I agree. ⁓ And one of many issues that I’m noticing, and that is anecdotal, so I need you to problem me if I’m incorrect, however most of my purchasers are of their 40s, 50s, 60s, they’re skilled, they’re not essentially C-Suite, however they’ve a variety of baggage and so they’re making use of for Jobs that require a variety of experience. And what’s taking place, Nick, is that the recruitment course of to them, ⁓

looks like an impediment course. There’s so many contact factors. There’s the decision from the recruiter, then a gathering with the recruiter, then an interview, then an evaluation middle, then a presentation. And IT simply goes on and on and on. I used to be with a consumer ⁓ who’s in Sydney ⁓ and he or she was saying, look, I’ve utilized for one thing in January and I solely heard again in Could.

after going by way of three interviews and an evaluation middle, as a substitute of a name, I obtained an e-mail saying I wasn’t going to be progressing. And he or she felt actually upset about that as a result of after investing a lot time, together with a face-to-face assembly and two Zoom conferences, she thought that she deserved at the very least to get some suggestions as to why she wasn’t going ahead. And that’s the truth that a lot of my purchasers

and I assume additionally my listeners are dealing with.

Nick Waterworth (39:56)
Yeah, and he or she did deserve some suggestions, however at the very least she obtained an e-mail. ⁓ know, ghosting is clearly a fairly widespread phrase in recruitment in the intervening time, ⁓ largely making use of to candidates who vanish into Scotch mist. ⁓ However IT also can undoubtedly apply to hiring managers and recruiters. ⁓ So I’m not saying IT’s good. IT’s not good, however at the very least she heard one thing.

you recognize, at the very least she might cross IT off her checklist and he or she knew that she’s upset. However OK, that’s one I don’t must expend any extra mind energy on. I imply, IT does my head in a bit as a result of IT’s really easy. In fact, you need to give suggestions. By the cellphone or, you recognize, as a lot as you possibly can, however to get again to all people is just not exhausting as a result of you possibly can automate these issues and. ⁓

I believe that’s simply widespread courtesy to permit folks to know that there’s nonetheless hope or there’s not. IT’s not that a lot work. can use Technology to make these actions very, very straightforward. So I really feel for candidates, massive star, I actually do.

Renata Bernarde (41:19)
What’s preserving your crew awake at night time today? What are the important thing issues that they’re having in 2025 when IT involves recruitment and number of candidates?

Nick Waterworth (41:33)
⁓ Once more, a quantity, I suppose the large, once more, IT’s completely different from space to space, however initially, let’s discuss Australia. ⁓

For our folks, most likely their concern is that employers, as a generalization, employers are hiring, however they’re hiring slowly. The cadence of the hiring is just not very quick. After which on the opposite finish of the scales, as we mentioned, candidates are trying, however many people who find themselves in roles are trying

cautiously. so, you recognize, time, lack of time, lack of tempo, reduces the possibilities of a profitable final result. In order that’s, that’s high of their thoughts. So once more, as we touched on earlier, return to 2022. The perfect 12 months for the recruitment business ever. And we’ll by no means see IT once more.

IT was the proper summer time. Cash was free post-COVID. All people felt invincible. We’ll by no means see IT once more. As I mentioned, we’re not fairly the other, however a lot of these elements that created that greatest 12 months ever are very completely different now. In order that’s most likely one of many apparent issues. After which I suppose one other issue is

time administration. ⁓ And that’s fairly difficult as a result of they’re working inside their very own crew and so they’ve obtained some obligations inside their crew. ⁓ They’ve obtained their candidates who’re pre-existing. They’ve obtained their new candidates who’re calling them, making use of to job adverts, connecting by e-mail as a result of we have been in touch three years in the past and I’m now trying once more. In order that they’ve obtained this sort of

virtually tsunami of ⁓ information developing at them from the candidate facet. After which they’ve obtained the consumer employers ⁓ who, know, the mindset of employers are as I mentioned. So I believe that’s, you recognize, that’s an element. However then for those who have a look at, and a few occasions I’ve touched on the US, so we’ve an workplace in New York and

IT’s very area of interest. within the U S our purchasers, one hundred percent of our purchasers are regulation corporations. And the one roles we work on are advertising and marketing and enterprise growth roles. So IT’s tremendous area of interest, albeit as a result of IT’s New York, largest authorized market on this planet. IT’s fairly a giant area of interest, however IT’s, IT’s very area of interest. We’re tremendous knowledgeable in that area in London and New York. And so.

For the time being, we’ve enough consumer demand, however discovering one of the best area of interest candidates is the problem. So for those who to ask that query to our recruiters and our chief in New York, what’s high of your thoughts, what’s preserving you awake at night time, IT isn’t, I want you had extra purchasers. IT is, I want we had extra spot on candidates who’ve obtained that authorized background and find out about

enterprise growth or advertising and marketing. So once more, there are completely different issues somewhere else, relying on the character of the market that individuals are working in.

Renata Bernarde (45:23)
Nick, that is your probability to offer suggestions to job seekers in order that they will enhance their sport when working together with your groups all over the world. What do you suppose are the largest misconceptions and even errors that job seekers are doing that makes IT tougher for recruiters to assist them?

Nick Waterworth (45:49)
So to get the ball rolling, let me choose one small factor and one factor that I believe is actually fairly essential. Small factor is, so that you’re speaking to your recruitment advisor and so they’ve mentioned, we’ve obtained XYZ position with Microsoft. Would you have an interest? Sure, I’d have an interest. You might have a dialog. Sure, I’d such as you to place my particulars ahead in your shortlist. Forty hours later, you hear again from the advisor, they are saying, excellent news.

Microsoft needs to interview you. I can give you 10 a.m. tomorrow, ⁓ 11 a.m. on Monday or 9 a.m. on Tuesday. There’s just one appropriate reply. 10 a.m. tomorrow. You all the time, all the time, all the time go first. You could be one of the best candidate and so they might give you the job on the spot. And the one that picked final considering I’ll have the possibility to wow them may not even get a shot.

So go first, set the bar excessive. I imply, I simply suppose that’s, as we’d say right here in Australia, that’s a no brainer. Probably a barely small factor, however perhaps one thing that folks don’t take into consideration. Maybe extra importantly, so that you go for the interview with Microsoft and the interview goes rather well. Seems you meet

the individual from expertise acquisition and also you meet your potential line supervisor and IT’s all fairly good. You understand that there’s one explicit ability that they talked about through the recruitment advisor you briefed on that you just’re perhaps solely 5 out of 10 on. And for some purpose in that interview, that ability hasn’t come up. So that you’ve obtained two choices. You go,

and you progress on and go away the interview. What you do on the finish of the interview is you carry IT up. We don’t do elephants within the room right here in interview conditions. You need this job. When your potential line supervisor speaks to their boss, I’ve obtained this candidate, Nick, who appears fairly doable, and the boss says, properly, how do they rating on this ability?

And the limer is properly, 5 out of 10. In all probability you’re gone. Whereas you’ve in all probability, you’ve obtained an excellent plan to take care of the truth that you’re solely 5 out of 10 in the intervening time, as a result of this ability is actually of curiosity to you. You’ve accomplished a little bit of finding out in any approach, and also you’re very joyful to decide to extra examine. And by the best way, in your earlier position, your boss dealt loads with that. So I may not have been straight liable for IT, however I noticed a variety of any such work.

And IT actually me. there could also be different candidates that you just meet who could be stronger, however there might be no person who’s extra enthusiastic than me about this explicit level.

Which is the higher reply.

Renata Bernarde (48:58)
I like that. Nick, you could have simply given away two of my profession teaching suggestions that sit behind my consumer firewall.

Nick Waterworth (49:12)
And

you didn’t even temporary me on them, Renata.

Renata Bernarde (49:15)
no, no, you don’t know this, however this factor about going first has all the time been my largest recommendation. IT’s such an unconscious bias that I do know ⁓ performs rather well with candidates which are good and select the correct time. And controlling, I take advantage of the identical phrases inside my course, my on-line course that I’ve for my purchasers. You understand, the elephant within the room, you need to deal with the elephant within the room.

When you’re contained in the boardroom or contained in the Zoom assembly, that’s the one time you could have management over the scenario. IT can be a disservice to you for those who don’t deal with the whole lot that must be addressed, as a result of when you stroll out, that’s IT.

Nick Waterworth (50:00)
So you may think that you’re, let’s simply say you’re in New York and also you’re one in every of our authorized enterprise growth professionals. And also you’re not making use of for a job, however you’re doing a pitch and your space of accountability is healthcare. So that you’re coping with the regulation corporations exercise within the healthcare sector. And also you go along with a associate on this pitch for this potential new consumer. And you recognize they’re concerned with

this side and your agency scores okay on that, however they do rating and IT doesn’t come up within the pitch assembly. You’re telling me you allow the pitch assembly with out bringing IT up? Properly, for those who’re one in every of our workers, I sincerely hope that by no means comes up. You carry IT up, you clarify the way you take care of IT, you clarify how maybe their notion could be a bit lower than the precise talents that your agency has obtained.

So for those who’re knowledgeable doing a pitch, you take care of IT. And but someway, for those who have been a candidate going for an interview, lots of people go, thank goodness that didn’t come up. I imply, IT’s, yeah, you’ve simply obtained to take care of that elephant and get on the entrance foot with IT. I do know as an employer, know, if I interviewing folks to hitch us and there’s a side, ⁓

Renata Bernarde (51:18)
I agree.

Nick Waterworth (51:27)
that we could be concerned with. To start with, I’d simply be impressed that any person brings IT up. That’s good. Reveals they’re not afraid. IT reveals they’re joyful to sort out points. That’s a fairly good begin. After which in the event that they’ve obtained a superb reply, properly, perhaps that places them forward of any person who’s obtained that ability as a result of they’ve proven a lot ardour and ⁓ inclination to study and lack of worry. These are nice traits.

Renata Bernarde (51:56)
Yeah, that’s superior. Superior recommendation. Nick, ⁓ IT’s virtually time for us to go. However earlier than we do, I’m so curious now as a result of I had no concept about that New York area of interest experience as a part of your group. Are you able to undergo every of your companies and clarify what they do? I believe that IT can be a superb factor for us to do for the listeners.

Nick Waterworth (52:23)
Fairly a protracted story, however let me attempt to discuss a pair which are maybe extra attention-grabbing. So in London, our London workplace is about 40 folks. Our purchasers are 100 % skilled companies. So about 60 % of the purchasers are regulation corporations, about 30 % are accounting corporations, and the steadiness are company Finance homes or consultancies.

Renata Bernarde (52:52)
Okay.

Nick Waterworth (52:53)
Previous to the Brexit vote, we had fairly a bit of economic companies purchasers. When Brexit occurred, I believed, I wasn’t considering that monetary companies are all leaving London. I didn’t suppose that. However what I did suppose was, do we’ve the possibility to be one of the best in monetary companies in London? No. Let’s use this as an excuse to get out of that as a result of

Renata Bernarde (53:01)
They’re gone.

Nick Waterworth (53:21)
We’re actually good in skilled companies. And if we solely do this, we might perhaps be one of the best. And I’m so happy that we took that call. Whether or not we’re one of the best but, I don’t know, however we’re up there. And we’re very knowledgeable. And in order that’s London. And IT’s due to that experience in authorized that we began getting inquiries from UK regulation corporations that have been purchasers of ours in London to assist us in New York.

And we mentioned, no, properly, we are able to’t assist. We’re not in New York. We don’t have any candidates. However they saved asking. And so Nikki, who’s our managing director over there, spoke to me and mentioned, you recognize, I believe we must always say sure, that we’ll attempt. However we defined to them that we’re not in New York. For the time being, we actually don’t have many candidates. However for those who’re joyful for us to attempt, we’ll attempt. So they begin, sure, we’d such as you to attempt. So we tried. And IT started to work. Then in January final 12 months,

we began getting US regulation corporations come to us in London. So we have been attempting to do IT from London. We began a small crew on New York in our London workplace. Then we began getting US corporations come to us. We’ve heard about ambition within the authorized advertising and marketing area. Are you able to assist us in New York? And that was the second that Nikki then referred to as me once more and mentioned, we’ve obtained to get an workplace going and get some folks on the bottom. so, so sure, so we’re now in New York, solely regulation corporations.

solely authorized advertising and marketing and BD and the purchasers are loving IT as a result of we’re courageous sufficient to be area of interest. ⁓ Let me discuss one other instance. So right here in Australia, we’ve ⁓ Watermark Search, which was a agency that we acquired 20 years in the past this 12 months. Watermark isn’t in some methods as area of interest as perhaps

the US London is, however IT sits in a really clear a part of the market. we have been speaking about their interim administration facet. So about 50 % of their enterprise is govt search. All of these are retained search appointments. In order that they’re research-led, client-led, retained search appointments. If BHP or Qantas have been searching for a brand new chief govt, is that us?

No, IT’s not. If a high 300 firm in Australia have been searching for a chief govt or a CFO, is that us? You guess IT is. If ⁓ BHP have been searching for a $200,000 individual, is that watermark? No, IT’s not. So we’ve obtained a really clear place available in the market. We all know what we’re. The market is aware of what we’re. And ⁓ that

group is prospering, IT’s rising 12 months on 12 months, even on this type of local weather. So once more, a excessive diploma of readability internally and externally. ⁓ perhaps maybe the final instance I’d give, in Hong Kong, we’ve a model referred to as Amtech. ⁓ Amtech is a mission companies enterprise that

⁓ predominantly runs software program testing groups. So we make use of technical leads that we placed on web site with a hospital or a financial institution or an insurance coverage firm, luxurious manufacturers firm, after which we workers up the testing crew with contractors. They usually go for a 12 months or 18 months. We tackle some danger by way of our Assertion of Works contract. However once more,

9 out of 10 of our initiatives are software program testing. Nearly in the intervening time anyway, virtually all of our testers for our Hong Kong purchasers, which is the largest space, virtually all of our testers are in Hong Kong, which the purchasers love. And we’re not being all issues to all folks. So we’ve accomplished one or two different issues. We’ve accomplished some stuff in KYC, know your purchasers and so forth. However the factor we stand for is software program testing. So for

me because the CEO, that’s one of many issues that will get me excited is can we stand for one thing on this operation? Will we stand an opportunity of being one of the best at IT? If we are able to’t, properly, why are we bothering? I imply, severely, let’s do issues the place we could be actually particular as a result of that’s enjoyable. That helps us do what I talked about proper at first, constructing higher futures. That’s essential to us.

And if we’re actually good, then we are able to do this properly. In order hopefully you possibly can inform, that’s what will get me off the bed within the morning. That’s what will get me excited with a of vary of companies and vary of potential is, ⁓ yeah, we might go into nursing recruitment, however we don’t know something about IT. And there are many gamers which are tremendous knowledgeable in that space. So we’ll by no means do this. However that’s…

That’s our reply, I suppose, is to work in niches the place we could be very, excellent.

Renata Bernarde (58:45)
Nick, I actually, actually admire the reason. Thanks a lot. And ⁓ I don’t know for those who bear in mind this otherwise you knew this, however simply earlier than the pandemic, I labored with Donna and Jacinta within the Melbourne workplace and I used to be purported to be there for six months. I solely did a 3 month since as a result of the pandemic began and we had a giant type of lockdown, particularly in Melbourne at the moment. And I left the group. IT was

purported to be a short-term mission anyway, however I liked, liked, liked working with that crew, not solely as a result of they’re simply so nice at working with one another and bouncing again from one another along with the crew in Sydney as properly, however how they work together with their colleagues from the ambition crew. In order that they sit collectively, the watermark and the ambition crew.

And I bear in mind sitting there within the workplace and listening to the ambition crew calling candidates and the way superior they have been with the candidates, each once they have been, you recognize, doing the quick checklist, but in addition once they have been letting them know that they weren’t going to maneuver ahead. So I discovered a lot from simply observing how they have been interacting. And so you could have a tremendous crew. Congratulations.

Nick Waterworth (1:00:06)
We do, however maybe the very last thing we simply touched on there may be speaking to candidates and attempting to assist candidates. So after we began at Ambition and we have been trying to elevate a bit of cash from outdoors to assist us develop the group and we put out prospectus, the primary one that returned the prospectus to place in

bit of cash was the primary Canada I ever positioned in Australia. And that’s actually really not about me. However IT is about constructing higher futures. In the event you assist folks and assist could be as small as merely returning their cellphone name that tough, simply return their cellphone name. If you will get them a job, properly, that’s cream on the cake. Individuals do not forget that. And so I used to be

delighted when that occurred with this shareholder. I’m delighted to listen to that you just noticed IT taking place with Watermark and Ambition in Melbourne. I prefer to suppose IT’s alive and properly throughout our community. IT’s only a massive factor we consider in. So I’m happy that you just noticed that and happy you continue to bear in mind IT.

Renata Bernarde (1:01:24)
Superior. Nick, thanks a lot for being on the podcast. IT’s been a deal with speaking to you.

Nick Waterworth (1:01:29)
Pleasure. Pleasure.