Constructing an irresistible employer model

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Stewart Gandolf

Hello everybody, Stewart Gandolf, welcome again to our podcast in the present day I’ve my new greatest pal, Cynthia Newton, which I can not consider. Cynthia, we have not met earlier than lately. So, I am so glad to have you ever on our podcast in the present day. Hey, Cynthia, I’d love you to start out off by telling our viewers just a little bit about your background. the quick model in addition to like what you are specializing in in the present day, simply to present some context for every part we’re about to speak about. I believe that is actually going to be useful on this case.

Cynthia Newton

Completely thanks for having me. And yeah, I knew of you. I knew the title. I do know the face, however we have by no means actually had a dialog till lately. So, I all the time say we’re in a small trade, and we must always know everyone, particularly I’ll date myself. Now. I am I believe, in my twenty fifth 12 months in healthcare advertising. So, you recognize, I in my little thoughts, I believe everyone is aware of who I’m proper.

Effectively, IT‘s humorous I received anyone who’s been round as a lot as me so long as I. Proper. So, let’s qualify that among the Newbies below 10 years may not know who we’re.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, effectively, IT‘s I received to earlier than I get into your background. Simply enjoyable. Reality. Simply received off the cellphone with Chris Baird and we have been speaking. She’s oh, inform Cynthia, I mentioned, Hello! And I simply mentioned to Chris, I’m a horrible networker. I have been so busy specializing in our personal firm. So anyway, I am tremendous excited. Go forward and inform individuals about what you do.

Cynthia Newton

Certain. I have been in round for a very long time. Initially began off within the Yellow Web page world.

Which is an odd factor to say these days. However consider search as like the most important phone book. Proper if you’re able to both go to a hospital, name a health care provider, you are going surfing and looking out and also you’re trying to find that Information. So, Google My Enterprise, Google Enterprise Profile turned the largest Yellow Web page listing there was. Now add to IT the brand new LLMs. And other people search and ChatGPT, and you recognize we’re in an entire new Wild West proper now.

So, my position now. And what I targeted on for the final, I might say 15 years since Google’s reared its little head up is principally serving to healthcare techniques be present in search and be chosen, proper? In order that simply does not entail simply listings administration, which I sort of was on the forefront of initially however that features in the present day, you recognize, fame administration, model administration, and I’ve dealt delved deeper into model administration and separated—there’s Client Model, after which there’s Employer Model. And so, I’ve actually been targeted, I’d say within the final couple of years, on Employer Model and Healthcare.

Stewart Gandolf

Good. And in order that’s actually what we’ll discuss largely about in the present day. And also you additionally had a while, I believe, with Physician.com and I believe fame as effectively. So, you have had some expertise with some.

Cynthia Newton

On the SaaS facet of the world.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, so nice. So, let’s discuss employer branding on-line in the present day. And you recognize, 1st of all, you recognize, simply to perhaps increase upon. What does that really imply when it comes to the work you are doing? And why is that so necessary in the present day?

Cynthia Newton

Yeah, you recognize, there’s particular. There are issues I do. And there is issues I do not do. Similar to on the buyer facet with affected person expertise. So, IT‘s actually, what can the common candidate on the employer facet see about your group? Proper? And the way do they type an opinion about what IT‘s like for individuals to be an worker at your group. That is solely the one factor that influences that’s actually the third celebration Information that they’ll see on search. So, whether or not that is in Glassdoor, Certainly, in Google, in Reddit? And LinkedIn, you recognize, I sort of sit on that facet most continuously. So, IT‘s how. What’s what’s that Information that is on the market? How is that influencing a candidate’s resolution to take the subsequent step and apply to your group what I do not tackle, I may help shine a lightweight on IT. Is your precise employer model, internally proper. I can not see your 1st celebration outcomes once I’m trying from the skin. So, as a marketing consultant, I get into that with the shopper to check out what’s your 1st celebration survey, saying, what your engagement surveys are, saying along with your workers, that is the Litmus Take a look at. So similar to the buyer facet the place we checked out what are our caps saying in comparison with what Google says, I do the identical factor. I am evaluating. What does your engagement survey? Whether or not that is Glenn, whether or not IT‘s PG, what does IT say once I examine IT to your third celebration of each other. Proper? And if IT‘s supportive within the sense that we have now a poor model on-line, and IT mirrors that internally in your 1st celebration surveys that deeper work of brand name work, of taking a look at your EVP and actually engaged on figuring out the cultural points that you’ve inside your group. I do not do this. That is a Chris Baird, proper? That is a Gene Hitchcock. There’s numerous consultants that dig deep on that facet. However what I do is convey to life, and guarantee that your inner is represented correctly, externally, to candidates to assist them make that journey. So, you are competing pretty in a in a really aggressive market.

Stewart Gandolf

Yep. So, as you recognize, our viewers contains individuals, in fact, from Health techniques and multilocation suppliers and completely different individuals like that the place the competitors for workers is fierce. However we even have you recognize, individuals from machine or pharma Health plan SaaS, completely different sorts of firms as effectively. So, I believe lots of these ideas will apply for them as effectively. Proper? We will be speaking about in the present day. So, we must always deal with what you are doing on a day after day foundation. However these ideas are fairly broad unfold in lots of instances, not less than. So, there’s, you recognize, lots of prime employer awards on the healthcare facet of the Supplier Hospital facet. . How a lot weight ought to we give these?

Cynthia Newton

IT‘s an important query. I believe I did a publish on IT. Actually, you recognize. Not a lot. They’re they’re nice for press releases in C-suite validation, proper? However they actually they not often line as much as what workers are literally saying on Glassdoor, Certainly, or Reddit. , I’ve examined search outcomes. I’ve examined in Google. I’ve checked out ChatGPT and Perplexity to do searches on discovering prime employers in healthcare and the checklist (and relying on the place you are trying) are very inconsistent, proper? So, candidates actually care about lived expertise, not advertising accolades. So these awards are 90%, and IT‘s an important publish. IT‘s an important press launch. However you recognize IT‘s third celebration critiques that actually maintain the load. Greater than that award ever will within the minds of potential candidates.

Stewart Gandolf

Received IT. And so, if you’re seeing or if you’re taking a look at, you recognize, for varied purchasers, what are among the purple flags you are seeing on the market that you recognize the candidates are a lot such as you’re serving to your employer manufacturers discover this. However what are workers on the lookout for? What are the purple flags there?

Cynthia Newton

Really easy. Pink flag is the ranking proper? That is IT. Yeah. , Glassdoor likes to say {that a} 3.5 to round 3.7 is the common for healthcare organizations. They wish to say that that is a glad worker, and I’ll beg to vary. , we stay in a 5 star world. So, a candidate isn’t any completely different than a client. Proper? After we go on to Amazon, and we take a look at one thing that we’ll buy, you recognize. Are we racing to the three.5 ranking, you recognize. Like, no, we wish to see a 5 star, or as shut to five star as we are able to, and we wish to see quantity of critiques. In order that’s the opposite purple flag proper is, even when you have a 5 star. However you may have 10 critiques in comparison with a product that has 2,000 critiques, and IT is likely to be a 4.7, you recognize. So, IT‘s not simply the ranking, IT‘s additionally the amount of the suggestions. After which what individuals are saying in that suggestions. Proper? So, if I am contemplating the issues that I’ve entry to as a candidate. I am taking a look at Glassdoor, and Certainly and so sure, the purple flag. However even when somebody has a greater rating, so say they’re like a 4.1, however there is no responses. That is a purple flag. Is the employer care what their workers are saying about them? Are they listening. So, in case you’re not seeing responses, your deduction goes to be like, effectively, they are not listening. A. They usually do not care as a result of they are not responding, even when they’re listening. B, so these are purple flags. In order that engaged employer, you recognize, in case you’re not seeing individuals truly engaged, perhaps you may have a sponsored profile. So, you are paying that sponsorship {dollars} in your adverts to run. However you may have a 3.2. I imply, this stuff are very incongruent with each other. So these are all purple flags.

Stewart Gandolf

Received IT that is sensible. So, you recognize, you may have lots of expertise with this class. What are the errors that organizations are making like. The place do issues go flawed?

Cynthia Newton

The largest mistake just isn’t ignoring them proper? Pretending like they do not exist. Put your head within the sand, you recognize. And you would be shocked on the variety of manufacturers or the manufacturers that you’d suppose as a result of they’re prime of thoughts. These manufacturers are most frequently the largest offenders of that—of I am not going to concentrate. I am not listening. I am pretending like IT does not exist. So, I’d suppose that is like the largest mistake is pretending like that does not exist. As a result of IT does.

Stewart Gandolf

Yeah, that is sensible. Effectively, you have been speaking. We have been speaking offline. Inform me about your employer index, and is that one thing individuals can simply discover? Or how does that work.

Cynthia Newton

Yeah. So, the rationale why I constructed IT—I am a pal, proper? I am not your foe. I am not your enemy. I’ve created an inventory, and IT‘s simply sort of wish to convey consciousness. So, I took. I began with everyone who received some kind of prime employer award. So, whether or not that is Forbes. Whether or not IT was, you recognize, Healthgrades, whether or not IT was Beckers, whether or not IT was whoever was the highest employer award winner, and I began with these as a result of I figured prime they need a prime award. Proper? Let’s check out what Glassdoor and Certainly say about them. And that is how I constructed this roster was. I simply ranked them based on their Glassdoor general ranking. We are able to rank them based on in Certainly, these fluctuate, and we are able to dig into the variations in scoring mechanisms on one other dialogue or one other query. However I constructed this to convey consciousness, as a result of IT‘s one thing that I really feel has been very a lot missed for a few years. As a result of and the reason being as a result of IT‘s sort of sits in No Man’s Land proper? HR. Who’re is the celebration that really is in control of working adverts and doing the recruitment, proper? So, they will are inclined to personal these profiles on these websites to replace and guarantee that these posts are listed. However advertising is not actually concerned generally in these websites. So advertising is actually about controlling what our model impressions like proper. What’s our model voice? So, IT sits proper now from an employer branding standpoint between these 2 of HR proudly owning the operate of hiring, however advertising actually proudly owning the operate of Model, and the way that acts as a pull to convey our workers in. And so, what’s occurred is that nobody’s actually owned that in a extremely significant method through the years. And now we’re at some extent of inflection inside our trade that we’re taking a look at a possible large shortfall of suppliers on the NDDO. Facet even APPs by 12 months 2034. IT‘s extraordinarily aggressive. And so now that is changing into increasingly more necessary, and I believe we’re on the level the place we have to begin paying consideration and begin managing IT, or we’ll actually fall even additional behind from our employment wants.

Stewart Gandolf

So, you recognize, like we talked just a little bit offline about generally that checklist that you’ve goes up and down, and among the greatest kind of most revered names in healthcare may be, you recognize, like surprisingly on by this measure, not fairly do as effectively another feedback on that, notably?

Cynthia Newton

Yeah, you recognize, once more, I am not right here to name out of us, you recognize. I will be the first one to

give kudos the place there deserves so like this month within the July launch, we had some of us transfer up in a giant method. So Methodist Health in Texas as a result of there’s a few Methodist Healths, however the ones in Texas they went from Spot 14 to rank 5^th, in order that they made a giant leap to an general ranking of a 4.3. That is fairly huge, proper? So, after we take a look at our prime 10, IT‘s an in depth, you recognize. Fairly shut. IT ranges from a 4.1 within the prime, 10 to a 4.6 St. Jude having that 4.6, and so they went up from one month from 4.5 to 4.6, however I’ll name out that we had some drops which have been shocking, and plenty of issues can lead into this. So, I’ll inform you what I believe may need occurred NYU Langone. So, I had them at Quantity 2 in June, and so they had a 4.4, which is extraordinarily excessive. That they had a quantity of scores of two,696. Now I did the replace. They dropped to a 4.1. Nonetheless fairly darn good, proper? IT‘s in our prime in our prime 20, however their quantity dramatically elevated to 4373. In order that’s, you recognize, nearly doubling their quantity. So, a few issues might have occurred. One they might have been listening to me and pushed out a assessment request unexpectedly to their whole group, which isn’t what I like to recommend you do. So, that is 1 state of affairs of what occurred. One other state of affairs is that we’re filled with mergers and acquisitions in our trade. So, in the event that they merged with a corporation, acquired a corporation and absorbed that group’s Glassdoor, and Certainly scores. And once more, I might go off on a tangent on that. That may be a motive why that dropped, and that occurred with one among my purchasers that I work with carefully on that is that we you recognize, Glassdoor is sort of like Google within the sense that numerous profiles can pop up when individuals simply wish to depart a assessment, and IT‘s not owned and managed by your group. If you wish to consolidate these so that you’ve one branded web page on Glassdoor. You are going to find yourself taking a bunch of free, goosey profiles bringing them in, and that might actually mess along with your general ranking. In order that’s one more reason why that that change may need occurred. So once more, I am not pointing them out.

Stewart Gandolf

Clearly, yeah.

Cynthia Newton

Yeah, you recognize, like, IT‘s a studying factor for all of us, together with Langone, to say, like, Wow, what did occur? Proper like? We have to take note of these issues.

Stewart Gandolf

Effectively, I believe one factor that the theme of the day a few conversations I’ve had even previous to talking with you is, you recognize, that is the sort of factor that folks I do not suppose, or individuals. Some executives most likely did not put lots of consideration to again within the day when there was just a few, you recognize, like each hospital, had its personal. Each city had its personal hospital. There was that hospital or not, after which, you recognize the there was loads of expertise. Now you may have very aggressive markets, and you have got a scarcity of expertise, so definitely, some individuals care about this stuff, for positive, most likely greater than used to, for the hospital techniques that wish to kind of authentically, you recognize, embrace this, take extra of a management, and however on the identical time be genuine and showcase their worker expertise on-line. What are some fast tips about how to try this.

Cynthia Newton

So, you recognize you result in some actually good factors there. Proper? One factor is that you recognize this isn’t HR’s accountability alone. , individuals wish to level fingers and say, Effectively, whose job is IT? IT actually is, employer branding is a management subject as a result of IT touches recruitment, retention, morale, even affected person expertise. So, you recognize, we have spent the final, you recognize, 15 years simply, actually targeted on affected person expertise from the ranking facet, from the assessment facet, from transparency. And if you consider affected person expertise, we will not ship an important constructive, affected person expertise. We won’t ship that 5 star affected person expertise, if the expertise on our worker facet is unhealthy, proper? So sad workers don’t make for constructive, affected person experiences. So, you recognize these issues go hand in hand so ,most frequently, what’s out there may be not consultant of your group if IT‘s left to natural outcomes. So, we have spent 10 years plus assessment requesting on the affected person facet. However we have not achieved IT internally. So, you recognize I’d say that among the issues that you just’d wish to do is to embrace that transparency piece. So, not simply from the affected person facet, but additionally the worker facet. So, take a look at your Glint scores, or PG, or whoever you are doing all your engagement surveys. Convert that to a 5 star scale, similar to you do in your Caps, proper the place you would possibly take that general ranking of how doubtless are you to suggest us as an employer, or general happiness, satisfaction, rating, and alter that to a 5 star scale and publish IT by yourself website together with some feedback. That is that transparency piece that that candidate’s going to land in your web site and have the ability to see that suggestions from verified workers. Ask workers to depart a assessment for you, you recognize that is an effective way to have extra engagement. Whether or not that is on a often like. So, I’d suggest not doing IT all at one time. So sometimes, after we do our engagement surveys, we do IT unexpectedly. Proper? All people is aware of IT‘s coming. We open up that survey. For six weeks we collect the outcomes we analyze, after which we share IT. I’d not suggest that you just ask for a assessment on a third celebration unexpectedly. We wish to unfold IT out for varied causes, one, for to not have dramatic ranking rating, you recognize, scores occurring drops and will increase, but additionally simply to have that recency issue, all algorithms, whether or not that is in LLM. So, whether or not that is in search from an web optimization standpoint, recency, relevancy. These issues are necessary. So, you need that that ongoing suggestions to be pushed on the market. So, you would possibly tie a assessment request to somebody’s anniversary date. Proper? Ship IT out. They’re celebrating their anniversary of how you recognize, nevertheless, a few years they have been along with your group, hey? Nice! Thanks, you recognize, Stewart, for being a part of our staff. We, you recognize, we wish to rejoice you. Would you share your expertise on-line, you recognize, for others?

Stewart Gandolf

Love that. That is an important thought.

Cynthia Newton

That I extremely encourage.

Stewart Gandolf

That is an important nugget. I like that one. So, let’s discuss AI, AI, AI, AI! We’re all speaking about AI lots. How does that impression within the employer model fame?

Cynthia Newton

IT‘s actually attention-grabbing. As a result of, once more, you recognize, that is considerably of a more recent viewpoint and newer focus for me and for everyone. I am most likely one of many few that is truly speaking about IT from a third celebration standpoint. And I believe that IT ought to mirror similar to client, you recognize, begin doing the searches the issue with LLMs, the AI kind of searches and ChatGPT, Claude. The issue with these is that so many different components similar to search, like search historical past, sort of come into play no matter you have been speaking about or looking out on beforehand you recognize, generally methods in. However do some searches by yourself model, you recognize. Give IT some good prompts. I am a gastroenterologist with 15 years’ expertise. I am on the lookout for you recognize, acute care, facility to be on workers in a smaller, you recognize metropolis within the Midwest you recognize, like inform me who a prime employer is that I ought to contemplate who has job openings. These are the kind of searches very lengthy tail detailed searches and begin seeing what comes up and you will be most likely not proud of the outcomes lots of the occasions. However you could perceive these outcomes, and I’d mirror them in all of those locations that candidates might be looking out

and actually understanding what leads into these. So once more, IT‘s that contemporary, related, frequent suggestions that is wealthy in particulars and tells tales. So, if you’re requesting these suggestions out of your workers, I have been amazed on the suggestions that we have been receiving from my purchasers which can be requesting as a marketer I couldn’t write the content material that I am getting in these responses from a artistic writing standpoint. IT blows me away. A number of the critiques, the feedback that we get, and we share these internally with administration and management. So, IT‘s not nearly recruitment. IT‘s not nearly like what you are trying like on-line to listen to this suggestions up via management actually sort of brings them again down from a from a macro view, to love trying inside their group at like, Hey, that is what IT‘s wish to work on 4B in XYZ hospital inside our system, proper? And taking a look at IT a really micro degree, to make change.

Stewart Gandolf

You talked about advertising a few occasions and employers, and just like the hole between this class like, who’s in cost like? So, what is the disconnect between inner tradition and the messaging like, what’s the hole, and who’s in cost, or inform us just a bit bit about that.

Cynthia Newton

, IT‘s we’re all actually in control of IT, and IT must be a management down. Push. I consider. , I believe affected person expertise is even a part of the equation the place I’ve had a affected person expertise chief that I’ve labored with beforehand at different organizations. Carry me into the HR staff into the advertising staff and say, hey, that is one thing as a affected person because the particular person you recognize liable for affected person expertise supply. I’ve issues about our inner, you recognize our worker expertise, as a result of IT straight impacts my capability to maneuver the needle which I am being charged with, you recognize. So, generally IT may not be advertising, main that that cost. IT may not be HR. Main that cost. IT is likely to be PX. IT might be somebody in operations, however all of us personal that accountability of what does that worker expertise? What’s IT like, and the way does IT drive our general progress for the group, our retention for our workers, after which additionally our attraction and retention for our sufferers as effectively and delivering that affected person expertise. So, IT‘s actually very integral into the general operate of the group.

Stewart Gandolf

So, you recognize, we talked about metrics about like, for instance, simply, you recognize, kind of averaging the scores. However are there any extra metrics they need to be monitoring that we’re not seeing individuals monitor.

Cynthia Newton

Completely. And that is the place IT will get lots more durable. So similar to advertising getting that ROI, taking a look at our KPIs. , among the KPIs just isn’t about what number of extra impressions we get on the profile. And I take a look at these. Clearly we doubled our impressions on our profiles for one among my purchasers, and that is an important KPI. We have doubled the clicks, you recognize. One other nice KPI. However on the finish of the day, did IT drive extra certified candidates? Did we have now sooner time to fill the open positions? , these are the metrics that we want to have the ability to dig in to, particularly if we’re investing {dollars} into sponsored profiles on these third celebration websites. Or if we’re investing in any kind of selling to fill our positions, you recognize, is knowing the place our candidates are coming from, what their pathway is. So, we discuss in regards to the affected person journey proper, the buyer journey to how they uncover care. We needs to be taking a look at our candidate journeys to how our candidates are coming to us, the place they’re coming to us. What’s necessary, and really, perhaps mapping these out as effectively. And I do not suppose we have spent as a lot time in our trade taking a look at these issues.

Stewart Gandolf

Received IT a few final inquiries to wrap up right here any huge myths about employer branding and healthcare.

Cynthia Newton

Hmm! I do not learn about a fantasy. I simply, you recognize. I simply suppose that IT‘s that IT‘s not necessary.

you recognize that IT‘s simply sort of a type of issues that oh, IT‘s Glassdoor! Oh, IT‘s Certainly! , IT‘s not simply these websites. IT‘s Reddit, you recognize. What are individuals speaking about. IT‘s Fishbowl in Glassdoor. Individuals are having actual conversations about what IT‘s wish to work in your group, and so they’re not having IT with you. So, you recognize, like IT is your drawback. IT‘s management. IT‘s a really a lot a management subject. And IT‘s not one thing that may be ignored.

Stewart Gandolf

Nice remaining query, is, so the place ought to you recognize Health system, or another sort of entity, for that matter, begin in the event that they wish to enhance their employer. Model fame.

Cynthia Newton

I’d begin by pulling collectively all the parents that I discussed proper, and IT must be a management. IT must be a C-suite initiative. the place they’re pulling in, and so they’re saying to their head of HR. And their Head of Advertising and their Head of Affected person Expertise like, here is what we have to contemplate, you recognize, like, I  simply discuss to a corporation the opposite day. They actually haven’t achieved an engagement survey since 2022, you recognize, after which they’re desirous to know. Effectively, how do you suppose we might shake out, you recognize, if we did one now, and I am like, effectively, let’s examine, let us take a look at 2019, proper? You have been up. You have been down in 22, I imply everyone was. IT was after Covid. However we’re 3 years publish, Covid, you recognize, and you actually must be doing this survey yearly, and in between doing you recognize, pulse surveys. So, there’s completely different points that happen that you really want suggestions all through the years asking these fast SMS inquiries to get suggestions. So, I’d say, that is most likely crucial piece is opening up that channel of direct suggestions. When you’re not doing engagement surveys, and IT does not need to be a giant fancy, you recognize, $5,000-$100,000 survey crying out loud, open up, SurveyMonkey, and do some fast polls proper that you just wish to get a temperature on. However you could begin listening, opening up that different listening publish on what’s being mentioned in social? What’s being mentioned in Reddit? What’s being mentioned on Glassdoor. 1st begin gathering and getting that evaluation of The place are we at earlier than then trying and saying, are we prepared to handle fame on the third events? Or do we have now to do some inner work first?

Stewart Gandolf

So, I admire your time, Cynthia. This was nice. I will add a few feedback so as to add to that. 1st of all, I like the concept of like do not get too caught up, you recognize, on the planet of healthcare, whether or not you are at a supplier, a hospital, or you recognize machine firm. There’s lots of issues to fret about, proper? There’s compliance. There’re workers, there’re prospects, there’s you recognize, affected person expertise, like all this stuff. So, there’s lots. So, in protection of among the hospitals or Health techniques which have had a tough time with this I can see how IT‘s simple to love to maintain your eye off the ball on the identical time, although the reminder like, effectively, you could possibly simply do SurveyMonkey. You do not have to go rent a staff of that is good, proper? You would do one thing that is actually necessary is like to not get misplaced within the you recognize, what’s the

all through the nice and pursuit of perfection. So, you get nothing began. So, IT‘s very easy to finish up there. So, I believe that kind of gorilla angle is necessary, when vital. Quantity 2, you recognize, we’re doing a ton of branding within the final couple of years. As well as, all of the digital advertising we’re recognized higher recognized for. However we do lots in branding as effectively and you recognize lots of people actually, the purchasers we have now to essentially convey into eager about their workers as a part of that course of. Proper? We won’t go create a brand new model and never convey the workers alongside. And so, you recognize, I believe not simply on the day-to-day, you recognize, worker satisfaction. However the place are they? , particularly with massive organizations. Your workers are one among your greatest stakeholders. Proper? So, in case you’re not eager about them, you are lacking the boat proper? So how can we tie this all collectively? And IT‘s arduous I get IT. IT‘s actually arduous. I used to be describing my, our personal, our personal company to somebody. A few occasions in the present day. Really, IT‘s like, IT‘s actually complicated. There’s lots there. However you continue to received to do IT. IT‘s desk stake what you simply need to do.

So, Cynthia, I admire your time. I stay up for work with you on some extra initiatives right here sooner or later and thanks for attending in the present day.

Cynthia Newton

Thanks. I admire IT.