Company, Id And Job Search

Jon Rosemberg (00:00)
One of the best ways to go from survival mode to thriving is training company. And I outline company because the capability to make intentional decisions supported by the idea, it’s a must to consider this, that your decisions matter and really have an effect on the world. That’s the definition of company. So the query that I usually get after that’s like, okay, nice, love company, nice definition, I perceive that. How do I do company? you already know, what, how?

How do you serve company for dinner?

Because the second I discovered about company, went actually deep into the analysis and tried to know what are some frequent threats? What are some by traces of concepts that assist us develop our company? And there have been three issues that saved developing again and again. And I summarize them in an acronym AIR, as within the AIR with temporary. And AIR stands for A for consciousness, I for inquiry, and R for reframing. if we observe AIR,

we develop our company. And if we develop our company, the extra we develop IT, the extra we are able to go from survival mode to thriving.

Renata Bernarde (01:22)
When did your success cease feeling like success? What occurred? When did you begin specializing in the whole lot that’s flawed at work and in your profession? I requested John Rosenberg how professionals can spot survival mode at work and shift into thriving. With an MBA from Cornell and a Grasp of Utilized Optimistic Psychology from the College of Pennsylvania,

Coupled with an inspiring private journey cast by immigration, loss, profession reinvention, John has this particular capability to mix hard-worn enterprise perception with cutting-edge analysis to information others in the direction of higher which means. On this dialog, we talk about the idea of company as a vital aspect for transitioning from survival mode to a thriving state.

John can also be the co-founder of Anther and the writer of a model new guide, A Information to Thriving, which shall be obtainable for buy on November twenty fifth. We begin off by reflecting on this journey from company to private achievement, which I’m certain you will see that very inspiring. Earlier than we start, I wished to additionally let you already know that this week on November twentieth, 2025 at 10am Melbourne time,

that’s November nineteenth, if you’re within the US and Canada or Europe. I’m facilitating a workshop in collaboration with job search platform, callings.ai on how one can job search throughout the vacation season. One can find a hyperlink to register in all of the totally different time zones within the present notes and in addition in…

all of my social media exercise on LinkedIn and Instagram, wherever you observe me. So please register and I’d like to see you there. And even in case you can’t come, I can ship you the hyperlink to the recording. I need to just remember to have all of the data you want to take advantage of out of the subsequent couple of months if job looking is vital and essential for you proper now and also you want a job quickly. Okay, let’s go.

to the dialog with Jon Rosenberg.

Renata Bernarde (03:38)
typically I usher in visitors for the sake of my viewers, in fact. I do know IT’s a subject that they should hear. In your case, sure, IT is for my viewers, however IT’s primarily for me. Like, I’m so thinking about your subject. And yeah, for private causes, for…

Jon Rosemberg (03:56)
I like IT.

Renata Bernarde (03:59)
scholarly causes, imply, IT could be a dream for me to do the masters that you simply’ve executed. I like that college and the teachers day and the analysis that comes out of the College of Pennsylvania. So I’m actually to know the whole lot about what led you to begin there.

you’ll be my mentor, Jon. IT’s determined. I’ve determined. Okay. Cool. Cool. One of many issues that I like about each of our experiences is that we went by this company expertise, you already know, and achieved C stage roles. After which we walked away.

Jon Rosemberg (04:23)
Rely on IT. I’d be pleased to. I’d be pleased to.

Renata Bernarde (04:43)
I need to know extra about why you walked away from a COO position.

Jon Rosemberg (04:48)
Renata, I spent two and a half many years climbing the company ladder, proper? And I chased the subsequent title, the subsequent promotion, the subsequent race. Like these have been the issues that matter to me.

After which I landed on this job at a startup, actually quick rising startup. We have been rising about double digits each month and we did a sequence B race of $150 million and the whole lot was going swiftly. IT was my dream job. We have been absolutely funded, able to develop. I traveled to LA after which I got here again to Toronto and I obtained COVID. I used to be exhausted. I obtained COVID.

and I used to be on a name with the technical workforce. And as I’m on a name with the workforce, IT begins getting extra heated and extra heated and extra heated. So at one level I’m like, okay, I’m executed with this. So I simply shut off my laptop computer, flip off my cellphone, and I heard my two children who on the time have been 9 and 6 enjoying within the basement. So I went downstairs and so they have been enjoying Legos. So I sat on the ground and began enjoying Legos with ⁓ Jacques and Charlie for about an hour. And as I used to be enjoying with them,

I had what I’d prefer to name a glimmer of company, and we are able to discuss somewhat bit extra in a minute about what meaning. However I noticed that though I used to be current and so they might see me at breakfast or at dinner and I used to be round the home, I used to be bodily current, however I wasn’t really current. I used to be lacking this vital moments of connections with my kids. So later that night, I’m sitting in my favourite chair and Adriana walks into the room and Adriana is my spouse.

And he or she says, Jon, are you okay? And, you already know, I used to be protecting my face with my arms and I checked out her and I mentioned, I believe I’m executed. And inside two weeks I had left the corporate. After which I made a decision to begin my very own enterprise. Finally went again to highschool and studied the masters of utilized constructive psychology and ended up scripting this guide. Little did I do know at the moment that that is the place that journey would take me.

Renata Bernarde (06:55)
That’s wonderful. ⁓ Jon, to individuals which might be listening and are executed as nicely, I imply, IT’s a privilege to stroll away, proper? So, and never really feel that you want to earn cash, you already know, right away and permit your self the, once more, the privilege of taking time without work to work on your online business, to go and examine.

Did you’ve Finance to again you up or did you go actually chilly turkey on this?

Jon Rosemberg (07:29)
That may be a lovely query. And the very first thing that I need to say is that lots of instances we really feel like we don’t have a alternative after we’re in survival mode. And survival mode is that this state, this 911 state the place we really feel like the whole lot is pressing and our focus is actually slender and we get tense and IT’s onerous to sleep and we overthink and IT’s onerous to cope with our feelings. That’s survival mode. Survival mode may be very useful when our bodily security is

in danger. That, in these instances, survival mode is a extremely adaptive solution to navigate the world. And I do know this as a result of I grew up in Venezuela. The 12 months I left the nation, there have been 52,000 violent murders, by some estimates. So survival mode was actually useful navigating that world. ⁓ In many of the Western world, and there are individuals who nonetheless stay in survival mode as a result of they’re in struggle zones or in tough locations, and IT is sensible, however in many of the Western world,

Our bodily Health is never a risk. So IT is our psychological, ⁓ our psychological wellbeing that’s in danger, however we understand IT as if if we have been going to die. So going again to your query, in that second, IT wasn’t like I mentioned, ⁓ I can do that. I’ve cash within the financial institution and I’ll be effective and I don’t should pay my mortgage. And no, I used to be scared. I used to be extraordinarily scared. And by the best way,

For the longest time, I’d say for many years, I assumed, if I go away this job, I shall be residing underneath a bridge in two weeks. I won’t be able to feed my household. I won’t be able to pay my mortgage. In order that was a really actual concern to me. ⁓ Now, was IT factually correct? Was IT really a mirrored image of my state of life? And I hear this quite a bit with my teaching purchasers that they mentioned, nicely, however I like my life-style. I don’t need to give any of this up.

Nicely, you’re giving one thing up by staying within the job, proper? You’re giving one thing up by staying and also you’re giving one thing up by residing, leaving the job. There’s a possibility price. So the brief reply is I didn’t have a plan. Was I financially okay? Sure, I believe for a short while, however I wanted to have a mortgage like most of us do, proper? Like I had lots of obligations. So

IT was a really scary choice and IT was like taking a step into the abyss. That’s precisely what IT felt like.

Renata Bernarde (10:00)
I’m glad that you simply share that as a result of I really feel like some people who I work with, as a result of I work with individuals which have been laid off or, know, hated their Jobs and resigned or actually couldn’t cope anymore such as you have been fully burnt out and need to do one thing totally different, however they actually really feel paralyzed by their incapability to place one step in entrance of the opposite with the intention to get to a special path for his or her careers as a result of

When you try this, you additionally lose lots of establishment and also you lose lots of your repute. You had a repute for being a COO. You don’t have any repute for being no matter IT is that you simply need to be subsequent. And IT’s an actual problem, IT? Pitching and discovering purchasers and never, and particularly for you since you have been so desperate to get out of survival mode and into thriving mode.

Jon Rosemberg (10:42)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (10:56)
I’m actually to understand how you handle that. Have been you in surviving mode while you have been establishing your online business?

Jon Rosemberg (11:03)
Sure, I’d say we’re, most of us, typically by the day, by the week, by the month, by the 12 months, we fluctuate between the 2 states, proper? And typically IT’s actually helpful to be in survival mode and typically IT isn’t as a result of our world narrows and we see quite a bit much less decisions.

I believe you hit on an important level, Renata, and I simply need to convey this up. Thriving and success are usually not the identical factor. So success is usually outlined by cash, standing, and energy, two of which you simply talked about, proper? And our system is constructed for us to be, quote unquote, profitable, no matter meaning to you, however IT’s normally cash, energy, and standing. That’s how success is outlined.

Thriving, alternatively, the best way I outline IT is outlined by company, which means, and social connection, that are three intrinsically motivated parts of our life that we are able to pursue, versus the opposite ones that are extrinsically motivated, proper? So if you concentrate on IT,

Energy is one thing that now we have over different individuals. Standing is the best way different individuals understand us and cash is one thing that now we have in our checking account or wealth, no matter we need to name IT. However company is a ability that we are able to develop ourselves. Social connection is one thing that we are able to develop ourselves. And which means is one thing that we are able to work on to attempt to discover and perceive higher and make which means out of our lives. So I need to make that distinction as a result of if IT was…

I might have referred to as the guide a information to success, however IT isn’t. IT is a information to thriving. So if the curiosity is to make more cash or get that promotion, that’s not what this guide is for. The intent of this guide is to assist individuals observe the ability of company. IT’s to steer extra agentic lives. And one of many issues that occurred to me once I was procuring across the manuscript for publishers is that I saved getting instructed your manuscript is just too

descriptive, we would like one thing extra prescriptive. What’s the recipe? What do I must do with the intention to thrive? And I believe that’s a really private query and that IT shall be totally different for each particular person. In order that’s why the guide is written with concepts and analysis and Information and many questions so that you can determine how one can thrive your self. That’s agentic thriving.

Renata Bernarde (13:34)
I like that. I actually need to discuss to you about company in a second, however simply sticking with the survival mode ⁓ and in addition for the sake of the listeners, when you’re laid off, while you lose your job or resolve to go away your job, normally you go into survival mode. In case you are having troubles together with your boss or difficulties assembly your KPIs or you might be in some form of efficiency administration scenario, you’ll naturally

Jon Rosemberg (13:51)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (14:03)
going to survival mode. ⁓ Probably the most vital issues that I believe individuals must do when they’re on the lookout for Jobs, when they’re making use of for Jobs and going by the job search journey is shifting to thriving mode. And that’s actually onerous to do, however IT’s crucial. Yeah, IT’s crucial as a result of even when IT means taking a break and typically I inform my purchasers and my listeners right here,

Jon Rosemberg (14:24)
IT is actually onerous.

Renata Bernarde (14:34)
take a break, you already know, to relaxation your reign so as to attain that cut-off date the place you’ll let go of a number of the grief and a number of the anger in the direction of what occurred to you or the way you’re feeling and transfer in the direction of thriving as a result of you want to be at your finest when you’re speaking to individuals about what you need to do and, you already know, and letting them know that you will be a fantastic match for that job that they’re.

⁓ promoting. I’d love to listen to your views about that when you have any suggestions or concepts to share.

Jon Rosemberg (15:11)
The very first thing is that I need to say is that in case you’ve not too long ago misplaced your job, that’s actually robust. IT sucks. IT actually sucks. I’ve been there and IT’s extremely onerous to be on this place the place you have been so productive for thus a few years.

and also you’ve completed so many issues and now IT’s like the bottom has been taken from beneath you and that’s very difficult. I additionally need to say that for many of us, not for all of us, however for many of us, particularly within the Western world,

We’ll discover a approach by IT. There are methods by IT. One of many massive inspirations for my guide was Victor Frankel, who wrote Man’s Seek for Which means. He’s a Holocaust survivor who went by unimaginable hardship, and he discovered a approach by. So by all empirical measures, Renata, humanity proper now, we’re within the golden age of humanity.

Renata Bernarde (15:50)
Mm.

Jon Rosemberg (16:17)
And I do know we don’t suppose that due to what we see in our feed and what we see in other places. However in case you have a look at our entry to meals, entry to water, entry to training, entry to Health, as a matter of reality, 100 years in the past, life expectancy was 32 years previous. In the present day is greater than double that. People have by no means lived longer or higher than now we have at the moment. That’s true. There’s proof to counsel that. And on the similar time,

we all know that charges of melancholy and anxiousness are rising and that there’s psychological Health challenges on the earth. So that is all very contextual and I’m going across the lengthy solution to offer you a solution. What I’m going to counsel is that with the intention to go from survival mode to thriving, particularly after you’ve misplaced your job and also you’re going by this struggling and this problem making an attempt to determine what your new identification is, and we are able to discuss identification, let’s desk that.

One of the best ways to go from survival mode to thriving is training company. And I outline company because the capability to make intentional decisions supported by the idea, it’s a must to consider this, that your decisions matter and really have an effect on the world. That’s the definition of company. So the query that I usually get after that’s like, okay, nice, love company, nice definition, I perceive that. How do I do company? you already know, what, how?

How do you serve company for dinner? ⁓

Because the second I discovered about company, went actually deep into the analysis and tried to know what are some frequent threats? What are some by traces of concepts that assist us develop our company? And there have been three issues that saved developing again and again. And I summarize them in an acronym AIR, as within the AIR with temporary. And AIR stands for A for consciousness, I for inquiry, and R for reframing. So if we observe AIR,

we develop our company. And if we develop our company, the extra we develop IT, the extra we are able to go from survival mode to thriving.

Renata Bernarde (18:24)
I like that. You talked about that we’re on this wonderful period and I believe we’re within the period of company as nicely. Not as a result of everyone has company today, however there may be the potential for lots of people to have company. And particularly once I’m pondering of this from a profession perspective, ⁓ you’ll be able to have your personal voice, you’ll be able to showcase your thought management, you’ll be able to current your self.

on a sub stack publication or on LinkedIn, you already know, together with your posts or write a guide and self publish. Like there’s simply so some ways that you may have company at the moment versus 10, 20 years in the past. however in distinction to that, I discover that persons are dreaming smaller and smaller. I don’t find out about you. Possibly IT’s simply, you already know, my surroundings right here. I’d like to, as a result of that is all anecdotal.

However persons are feeling very conservative once they’re making decisions, I discover. ⁓ And perhaps this openness of social apps and, once I inform individuals it’s a must to be extra on LinkedIn, there’s an actual ⁓ barrier there from most of my purchasers to be susceptible and current themselves and have company. Do you discover that that’s the case additionally the place you might be in Canada?

Jon Rosemberg (19:44)
⁓

You might be declaring a extremely fascinating paradox right here, Renata, which I believe IT’s vital to convey into gentle. IT’s this concept that the extra in survival mode we’re, the extra we need to defend ourselves. We need to construct this more durable and more durable more durable shell so we don’t get damage once more.

And what the analysis is telling us is that we’re meant to do the alternative. We’re meant to create extra social connections. We’re meant to useful resource ourselves higher. if there was a tablet or a medication that will enhance your wellbeing, enhance your immune response, lower your melancholy, ⁓ cut back your danger of stroke or of a cardiovascular occasion,

Enhance your survival by 50%. Would you are taking this drug? Most individuals would say, sure, I’d. That drug is social connection, significant social connection. So after we endure and after we undergo hardship, ⁓ so one of many principal tales within the guide that I inform about myself is that my finest buddy referred to as me on January 4th of ⁓ 2023. ⁓

from a hospital in Caracas, Venezuela. He was in Caracas, I’m in Toronto. This is sort of a brother to me. ⁓ And he referred to as me and he mentioned, I used to be simply instructed I’ve stage 4 liver most cancers.

And he doesn’t look good. He died 4 months later to the day. And from the second he obtained the analysis to the second he died, I noticed him shrinking, not solely bodily, as a result of he misplaced weight and the influence that this very tough expertise he was going by, horrible, however IT was additionally more durable to achieve him and more durable to attach with him. His title was Nathan, by the best way.

And so I consider Nathan and I consider his previous few months and by the best way, he was some of the joyful, kindest, most given individuals I’ve ever met in my life. And I noticed how a lot his character and his approach of navigating the world change because of being very justifiably so in survival.

There are other people who face the identical problem, the identical Health problem of their books and Information and analysis about this, who strategy IT otherwise. They usually achieve this as a result of they’ve the social connection, as a result of they’ve the assets, and due to many various parts, like many various variables. However what I’m suggesting is that now we have a alternative, regardless of the hardship that we confront, now we have a alternative, nevertheless small, to resolve how we confront.

our hardship.

Renata Bernarde (22:37)
Sure, you’re proper. ⁓ that alternative may be discovered. you already know, if persons are listening and pondering, you already know, in case you’re designed a sure approach and you’ve got traits in a sure approach, you’ll be able to study these issues. And that’s what your guide’s making an attempt to painting in Showcase.

Jon Rosemberg (22:57)
There’s overwhelming proof to counsel that we are able to study. Overwhelming proof. And IT might not be the case for everyone. I’m certain there are individuals who have gone to unimaginable hardship who may be very onerous for them to get out of survival mode. IT’s attainable. Once more, IT’s not prescriptive. IT doesn’t work for everyone. And I consider that for many of us, this can be a muscle that we are able to train. And the extra we train IT, there’s this factor referred to as neuroplasticity.

Renata Bernarde (23:01)
Thank

Jon Rosemberg (23:26)
Our mind has the capability to vary. Our our bodies have the capability to vary. And if we train that sufficient, IT begins to grow to be a special approach of going by life. Pay attention, Renata, I used to be some of the cynical individuals you’ll ever meet. And, you already know, I used to diffuse my discomfort with humor and barely be susceptible or connecting with individuals. And IT was because of the hardship and the educational and the learning that I…

got here again to this realization that I’ve company and that I can develop this company and I can use IT to steer a greater life for me. And now right here’s essentially the most highly effective a part of this entire factor. After we develop our company, IT not solely impacts us, however IT impacts the individuals round us, our pals, our households, our communities, our cities, our international locations, and the remainder of IT. There’s a ripple impact that extends far, far past ourselves.

Renata Bernarde (24:21)
need to take a look at a speculation with you right here about company that I’ve been speaking this for fairly a while. So gosh, in case you disagree with me, I’m in hassle. A couple of years in the past, I learn a guide referred to as Store Class as Soulcraft. This guide by Matthew Crawford opened my eye to one thing that I need to share with you now.

Jon Rosemberg (24:25)
Let’s do IT. Let’s do IT.

Yeah

Renata Bernarde (24:46)
IT’s not precisely ⁓ what he mentioned in his essay, however IT’s what I understood from IT, that’s what I’m making an attempt to say. Company professionals really feel like they’ve much less company than different professionals. Professionals which might be, for instance, actors and athletes or plumbers or piano lecturers, they should have extra company with the intention to get gigs and Jobs.

they should get out of their consolation zone time and time and time once more with the intention to get a consumer, to get a brand new pupil. And I discover that basically fascinating that as a result of we end college and we go right into a graduate program and if we really feel like we’re protected for at the least a decade, if we get into a pleasant consulting agency or no matter.

Jon Rosemberg (25:15)
Hmm.

Renata Bernarde (25:43)
we form of, that muscle doesn’t get used.

Jon Rosemberg (25:48)
That’s fascinating. I’m ⁓ curious. I believe that will be a extremely fascinating speculation to check. I’m ⁓ undecided. What I’d say is that the company surroundings normally is created with the intention to extract as a lot productiveness from the parents who work within the company surroundings as you probably can.

Renata Bernarde (25:50)
Yeah.

Jon Rosemberg (26:13)
And I do know IT as a result of I helped design IT in a number of the corporations that I work with. ⁓ After all, we didn’t describe IT in the best way that I’m describing IT proper now, however the intention was how can we maximize productiveness, proper? So we might connect the worth of staff to their productiveness, which I believe, primary, could be very slender minded. ⁓ And quantity two, IT misses a giant half. What could…

Many hundreds of years in the past when homo sapiens and Neanderthals have been inhabiting the earth, Neanderthals have been larger than us and extra highly effective. So why did homo sapiens, why have been we capable of survive whereas Neanderthals didn’t? And one of many theories that has lots of consensus is that IT’s as a result of we might work in a lot bigger teams. So I’d argue that within the company surroundings, there are two kinds of worth.

that you simply’re creating at any given level. The productive worth, which is how good are you at working a undertaking plan or doing a knowledge evaluation or creating a method deck or no matter IT is that your job is. That’s productive worth. Most of us focus quite a bit on that. However there’s one other portion of this, which is relational worth, which is how nicely do you join with the entire totally different elements of the group in a approach that you may convey them collectively, which by the best way, IT’s

form of the concept of management, proper? In a approach that you may convey them collectively to perform nice issues as a gaggle. And I believe that’s what makes organizations nice. to take this level only one step additional, final 12 months there was a analysis from Oxford College that principally was making an attempt to know the correlation between the wellbeing of staff and a agency’s ⁓ market worth.

And what they discovered is that the highest hundred corporations, I need to say they have been about 1200 corporations that they, ⁓ that they analysis the highest hundred corporations on wellbeing outperformed the SMP by 11%. So there’s a enterprise case for wellbeing that I believe we’re ignoring. There’s a enterprise case for relational worth that I believe we’re ignoring. And there’s a enterprise case for providing

Renata Bernarde (28:25)
Wow.

Jon Rosemberg (28:35)
and giving staff company within the office and permitting them to thrive within the office to seek out which means, to create social connections and to have company within the office. There’s a enterprise case that I believe we’re ignoring as a result of we proceed to see individuals as renewable assets. know, so and so will get fired and I simply employed any individual else. So and so will get fired. I simply employed any individual else. And that’s such a reductionist view to see the human potential.

So I believe there’s a cultural shift that should happen. And I believe IT’s taking place in lots of locations, however we all know that lots of workplaces haven’t skilled this but. And that’s after we create all these poisonous cultures that we’re additionally accustomed to.

Renata Bernarde (29:17)
Sure, sure. You tackled IT from a special perspective than what I used to be pondering of, however I like that. And I believe you’re proper. suppose that, you already know, I imply, we, know, my background and what I studied is ⁓ commerce and enterprise. And we see these great enterprise instances after we’re learning advertising and marketing and Finance and of corporations that do nicely as a result of they’ve given their staff company to deal with prospects, to resolve points on the bottom.

We don’t really see that after we really begin working in organizations. So there’s this discrepancy between finest practices and what we expertise as people who go into the workforce right away. However what I used to be pondering of extra was company of your profession. So caring for your profession and doing skilled improvement alongside the job that you simply do and growing your personal private repute alongside

Jon Rosemberg (30:03)
Mmm.

Renata Bernarde (30:15)
the place that you’ve in a company. I don’t find out about you, however I keep in mind as soon as leaving considered one of my Jobs the place I form of turned fairly well-known and I had a number of these perks and, you already know, individuals would, you already know, give me free issues. As quickly as I left that job that each one disappeared and I’m like, IT wasn’t about me. IT was in regards to the place that I had. Proper. So I didn’t form of nurture these relationships in a approach.

the place I discovered a lesson after that, IT by no means occurred once more. I turned significantly better at having my very own community that belonged to me and to not the place that I used to be holding on the time. And once I see individuals popping out of roles after being in a company for 15, 20, 25 years, I see that they abruptly don’t have a way of self as an expert.

Mm.

Jon Rosemberg (31:13)
Yeah, so let’s discuss identification for a second, proper? As a result of identification is a crucial a part of how we navigate the world, proper? So let’s outline identification first. I believe identification is a bundle of beliefs.

So IT’s a bunch of beliefs that now we have about ourselves. After we pull all of them collectively, that creates an identification. Now, the fascinating factor is that beliefs get challenged. We will select to problem them ourselves, which might be extremely agentic, I would counsel. Or the surroundings will problem IT. If we are saying, ⁓ I’m on the prime of my sport. I’m one of the best analyst that has ever existed on this firm and so they can not survive with out me.

After which two years later, right here come the LLMs and all of the AI, and out of the blue they’ll do the evaluation significantly better, far more precisely for a fraction of the price in a fraction of the time. Poof, there goes the identification. So does that imply that you simply not have any worth to supply? So the primary perception that we have to problem is that our price is tied to our productiveness. And I believe lots of us consider this.

very, IT’s like a deeply, deeply ingrained perception. I’m solely beneficial once I’m productive. You already know, I’ve a number of, I work with purchasers as a coach and these are all, most of them are very senior people who find themselves on the prime of their sport, they’re prime of their careers. And one query that I prefer to ask is, in case you needed to cease producing tomorrow, what could be your worth?

and most of the people are stumped. They have no idea how one can reply this query. IT is a really tough query to reply. Nicely, I might all the time do X or Y. No, no, no, no, that’s not what I’m saying. What’s your elementary worth as a human being? And this can be a very deeply engraved perception. if we take this perception and we

Renata Bernarde (33:13)
Yeah.

Jon Rosemberg (33:23)
take IT out from the shadows and we put IT in entrance and middle and we begin to problem IT, we all know, proper, there are individuals on the earth who can not produce for no matter purpose. Possibly IT’s a incapacity, IT’s their circumstances, no matter that’s. Would you argue that that particular person is value lower than one other particular person? In all probability not, most likely not, proper?

So this concept that we are able to measure the worth of a human by their productive worth, ⁓ I believe IT’s time to problem IT. And I believe, by the best way, I believe that is deeply ingrained in our system, proper? Our system was created for productiveness. so now we have to problem the concept and now we have to problem the system that comes with that concept and begin making an attempt to know what’s the elementary worth of an individual.

what I would say, and IT could sound Pollyanna, is that the truth that we’re alive, you already know? So the Earth is one planet amongst, I don’t know, what number of billion in our galaxy? After which there’s about two trillion galaxies within the universe. And by the best way, IT retains increasing. The universe continues to increase. So the truth that, Renata, that you simply and I are having this dialog right here at the moment is a miracle.

The truth that now we have life is a miracle. perhaps there may be proof, the proof to counsel that our life has worth is simply the truth that we exist, that we’re simply right here.

Renata Bernarde (34:43)
Mm.

Yeah. I like that. This is among the most difficult conditions while you’re job looking, when you’re between Jobs, is that you’re not being productive within the sense that you simply don’t have a 9 to 5 job anymore. And that transition into on the lookout for work could typically my purchasers will say, okay, what do I do subsequent? You already know, I’ve an interview in per week’s time. What ought to I do? And I’m like, nothing.

Jon Rosemberg (35:07)
That’s him,

Renata Bernarde (35:25)
between every now and then.

Jon Rosemberg (35:27)
How do they react when

you say nothing?

Renata Bernarde (35:30)
Often when, look, I’m gonna give away a few of my IP right here, however I discover IT hilarious. Individuals guide consultations with me as a result of they need to prep for interviews. And I say, okay, when is your interview? Let’s say at the moment is Monday, the interview is Friday. And I’m like, nicely, you’d should ensure that as a lot as you’ll be able to, that you simply sleep nicely. Are you a runner? Sure, go for a run. Day-after-day if attainable. Let’s sweat out all that survival mode, combat and flight scenario. ⁓

How do you eat? Inform me about your meals. Do you drink espresso? Okay, let’s do a espresso schedule for you. What time is the interview? ⁓ right here in Australia, typically now we have interviews at 11 p.m. at night time, relying on, you already know, due to the scenario. Nicely, then between every now and then, day by day, you’re going to drink espresso at 10.30 p.m. at night time. I can’t try this. No, it’s a must to. You’re going to drink a espresso at 10.30 p.m.

Jon Rosemberg (36:12)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (36:25)
and then you definitely’re gonna observe to your interview at 11 p.m. at night time day by day. and we’re not even speaking about behavioral questions or star questions, know, scenario that, and so they’re getting actually anxious as a result of IT’s a one hour session they paid for. They usually’re pondering, okay, this lady is loopy. However IT works, IT works each time.

Jon Rosemberg (36:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, however you already know IT’s in

IT’s fascinating as a result of having interviewed tons of, if not hundreds of individuals all through my profession, suppose selections get made, imply, Renata, can appropriate me right here, however selections usually get made actually early within the course of, proper? You meet a candidate and your biases kick in and all of this stuff, have already got, the interviewer goes by their very own factor, perhaps that they had a nasty morning, who is aware of what’s occurring by their heads.

Renata Bernarde (36:53)
Yeah.

Jon Rosemberg (37:19)
And I believe essentially the most highly effective solution to present up in an interview is authentically. And that’s a extremely onerous factor to do. IT’s a extremely onerous factor to do to say,

Renata Bernarde (37:26)
Sure. Yeah.

being current, being ⁓ intentional. I do know you want that phrase about what you’re to say and hopefully though sure, you’ll have some stress hormones fluctuating in your system at first, hopefully attempt to do away with them inside 10, quarter-hour. Often males ⁓ do IT quicker than girls and inside 10 minutes they may form of get overcome.

Jon Rosemberg (37:37)
I like that phrase.

Hmm, that’s fascinating.

Renata Bernarde (38:00)
As a result of IT makes you jittery, IT makes you forgetful. You understand how IT is to talk a second language, I’m assuming from what I learn in a guide. Many instances, Joan, I’ve opened my mouth in interviews and the very first thing I say is one thing in Portuguese as a result of my mind is simply so wired for combat and flight that IT bypasses all of the inventive pondering that’s crucial to talk a second language. And I’m like, after which I’ve to form of appropriate IT in a short time.

Jon Rosemberg (38:08)
I do.

Renata Bernarde (38:30)
So ideally you need to observe IT ⁓ with any individual like me. And I prefer to make my ⁓ consultations as awkward and tough as attainable for my purchasers. As a result of I need them to make use of all of that vitality.

Jon Rosemberg (38:51)
So can I supply a suggestion right here, Renata? And perhaps

you’ll let me know, since you’re the knowledgeable, however I’d love to listen to your ideas on this. ⁓ So within the guide, I current this concept of the AIR methodology, which stands for consciousness inquiry and reframing. In an interview case examine, what would that seem like? So let me first ⁓ form of describe what the AIR methodology is for the listeners.

Renata Bernarde (39:00)
Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh, let’s undergo IT.

Jon Rosemberg (39:21)
⁓ You already know, earlier this summer season, my son broke his arm three days earlier than going to summer season camp. And he had a giant solid all the best way as much as his shoulder. So whereas his pals have been leaping within the lake, he was enjoying with a Rubik’s Dice. And I’ve a Rubik’s Dice proper right here for the people who find themselves listening. I’ll clarify this in addition to I can. ⁓ So.

After we’re going by a tough scenario like leaping on an interview, proper? A traumatic scenario, a scenario the place we get into that combat or flight or freeze mode or we’re in survival mode, proper? What occurs is out of the blue the Rubik’s dice is like IT’s proper subsequent to our eye, proper? IT could be very tough to resolve the Rubik’s dice if IT’s proper subsequent to your eye, proper? So all you’ll be able to see is one little sq., proper? And that could be the crimson sq. or the blue sq., no matter coloration, however that’s all you’ll be able to see. When you apply air,

The A is consciousness. IT’s simply noticing. And meaning creating somewhat little bit of distance between you and the scenario. And that may be executed by respiratory. IT may be executed by mindfulness. IT may be executed by simply sensing your bodily state and noticing, my jaw is tight, my shoulders, I’ve a shallow breath. So that you’re now turning from being topic, the topic of your expertise, to turning IT into an object that you may really have a look at. In order that’s consciousness.

Then IT’s the attention, which is inquiry, and IT’s simply getting actually curious. So that you say, OK, so this can be a Rubik’s Dice. IT’s obtained, as an alternative of only one sq. with one coloration, either side has 9 squares with 9 totally different colours. And there are six sides to IT. So now you’re seeing the scenario otherwise. In an interview, you can say, nicely, if this particular person isn’t participating with me, may not be due to me.

Possibly they only had a nasty day or perhaps they’re connection socks or perhaps they’ve any individual ready outdoors their workplace or you already know, perhaps they’re simply drained and so they need to go to the toilet. IT’s like, you already know, there’s 1,000,000 methods during which we are able to slice that. So that will be inquiry. After which we are able to begin getting actually curious and enjoying round with the Rubik’s dice, proper? And, and seeing all this strikes come what may approach. And you already know, we are able to change IT round, we are able to play with IT. And the reframing is discovering a mixture that works for us.

So within the case of the interview, IT may very well be, you already know, I can’t management how my interviewer goes to behave. I can’t management that the connection isn’t working. I can’t management that the questions this particular person is asking me don’t have anything to do with the questions that I’ve prepped for for the previous month and a half. What I can management is my presence and the way I present up and the way I pay attention and the way I interact with an interviewer. And that’s company.

That’s company saying, right here’s the selection that I could make to interact on this dialog. Possibly a reframing that labored for me rather well whereas I used to be interviewing for Jobs, which I did for a lot of, a few years, is seeing them as observe. I’d go into an interview and say, that is simply observe. IT doesn’t matter if I get the job. IT will assist me get the subsequent one. Proper? In order that’s a possible reframing which will work rather well while you’re going for an interview.

Renata Bernarde (42:25)
Sure.

I like that. I haven’t used these phrases, however I believe as a result of we come from comparable backgrounds in what we’ve studied, I hope that I’ve been doing justice to all that constructive psychology analysis that I’ve executed as a pupil as nicely. So sure, I like that. One factor that…

that I like about what you’ve simply mentioned, when you’re questioning, when you’re paying consideration, when you’ve sufficient perception to concentrate to what’s taking place in an interview scenario, you’ll be able to modify and do the reframing. You could find the patterns, the conditions or the solutions or the methods that you’ve engaged that introduced a sparkle in somebody’s eye that,

Jon Rosemberg (43:19)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (43:30)
caught their consideration, that they checked out you or that they wrote one thing down while you have been, such as you need to take note of these issues to present you clues and how one can interact with that new viewers for you. So ⁓ I like that. And the opposite factor too is ⁓ popping out of that scenario, you already know, if persons are listening to this and preparing for interviews,

And as an alternative of pondering, I’m gonna get some beer and chill out, IT’s all executed. Ideally, what you need to do is sit down and try this steady enchancment that can faucet into what you simply mentioned. That is an expertise and I’m gonna study from this and get higher at IT and do higher on the subsequent interview.

Keep in mind to put in writing issues down as a result of one of many issues I’ve seen working as a coach that principally helps individuals get Jobs is that once they come to my session, perhaps two weeks after an interview, they forgot the whole lot. Now we have the, is IT a part of the combat and flight? We principally simply overlook, we overlook the questions that have been requested, what we mentioned. You already know, I believe individuals simply zone out. They only fully, you already know, I’m not saying that everyone.

Jon Rosemberg (44:38)
Hmm.

Yeah, particularly if we’re overwhelmed,

our reminiscence tends to not document as nicely. You already know, I ⁓ was speaking to a buddy of mine who’s from Germany and I’m descendant of Holocaust survivors and he or she lives in Dachau the place there was one of many largest focus camps and gasoline chambers. And I used to be speaking to her and I mentioned, I’d love to return and go to you someday and really see the

Renata Bernarde (44:58)
Yeah.

Jon Rosemberg (45:21)
focus camp as a result of I’ve by no means been to 1 and my grandparents have been survivors. A few weeks later, I used to be having dinner with a extremely good buddy of mine. We backpacked collectively by Europe and I used to be telling him about this dialog and I mentioned, you already know, we must always have gone to a focus camp and we must always have seen IT. And he checked out me and he mentioned, Jon, we went to Dachau and I mentioned, what? I mentioned, no, we didn’t. And he mentioned, sure, we did.

And as he began telling me in regards to the day, the pictures began flooding me and I began remembering the gravel on the ground and being inside one of many gasoline chambers. so my physique deemed the expertise an excessive amount of within the second. And I principally erased IT from reminiscence for the higher a part of 20 one thing years. And IT was this

Renata Bernarde (45:51)
⁓ you meals go quite a bit.

Jon Rosemberg (46:20)
form of bizarre chain of occasions that form of introduced IT again to me. And I noticed, my goodness, is reminiscence ever a fickle factor? IT is a fickle factor.

Renata Bernarde (46:33)
Sure IT is, I’m emotional about this. That is loopy that you simply have been capable of put that apart and shelf IT into your mind and overlook that you simply’ve been there. ⁓ That’s spectacular. Our mind is simply such a curious factor. Superb.

Jon Rosemberg (46:50)
Sure. And I believe you

hit Danelle within the head, Renata. Getting curious is the important thing right here. We regularly deal with our ideas as in the event that they have been the final word arbiters of reality. I’m a agency believer, and this can be a perception, that there isn’t a such factor as an absolute reality. Issues may be challenged. These are beliefs that we are able to problem. Our reminiscence is issues that we are able to problem. So we maintain on to those concepts so tightly.

Renata Bernarde (47:07)
Mm-hmm.

Jon Rosemberg (47:19)
and we make them part of our identification and we endure due to IT. And studying to let that go, even simply creating somewhat little bit of slack, proper? We’re not speaking about giving up your identification or giving up your beliefs. We’re simply speaking about holding them somewhat bit lighter, simply so you’ll be able to see different angles, simply so you’ll be able to permit your self to reframe tough conditions. That may be a actually highly effective factor.

Renata Bernarde (47:44)
Sure, sure. I’d like to ask you extra, and I haven’t reached that half in your guide but, however I need to know extra about emotional company. What does IT imply to have emotional company? And perhaps how can individuals ⁓ use that as a part of their careers and their…

Jon Rosemberg (47:56)
Mmm.

Renata Bernarde (48:08)
the best way that they current themselves, their govt presence. One factor that I ⁓ inform individuals to do, and IT has labored to this point, so I’m hoping I’m doing the suitable factor, is at any time when they’re writing a Kovaletta, at any time when they’re pitching, that they use the artwork of persuasion from Aristotle’s. And I like IT as a result of IT’s 2,000 years previous. In truth, that’s how Chet Tooby-Tee writes issues as a result of any individual taught…

you already know, chat to be to put in writing in that approach, which is it’s a must to be temporary. You must begin together with your ethos, you already know, inform individuals what you do in case of an expert pitch. You then present all of the receipts, you already know, all of the rational causes, the logic the reason why you’ve that have, all of the Jobs you had, and you are able to do some title dropping. That’s all effective. However then you definitely faucet into pathos and then you definitely faucet into feelings.

You already know, inform them what you’re captivated with, you already know, present them that vulnerability that can make individuals need to join with you, proper? Share some examples. That’s the artwork of persuasion. IT’s so easy. However most instances I get Kova letters from individuals or I hear individuals speaking about themselves once they guide consultations with me and IT’s simply logic, proper? IT’s by no means emotional. Or they’ll begin off

Jon Rosemberg (49:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (49:29)
You already know, and typically I am going to individuals’s LinkedIn profiles to do a LinkedIn audit and so they begin off actually passionate. I’m captivated with this and that proper initially. And that doesn’t join instantly as a result of that sounds somewhat bit cringe. ⁓ Discovering your stability is tough.

Jon Rosemberg (49:43)
Sure, I get that.

Sure. So there’s a lot to unpack on what you simply shared, Renata. So let’s begin perhaps with emotional company. So for the longest time, we believed feelings have been hardwired. This is sort of a Darwinian notion that, you already know, pleased, you smile, you present that happiness, and that happiness is identical throughout cultures and world wide.

know, feelings are all the identical for everyone, proper? Now we all know what analysis is telling us is that they’re not, they’re constructed. There’s sensations that we really feel within the physique, however our mind is sensible of these sensations and interpret them. Let’s return to the interview instance, proper? While you’re about to enter an interview, Renata, do you want curler coasters?

Renata Bernarde (50:35)
Mm-hmm.

No, I hate them. I’ve by no means been to them.

Jon Rosemberg (50:42)
Okay,

then you definitely’re not going to love this instance. I’ll use IT as a result of I’m an enormous fan of curler coasters. ⁓ And once I began first occurring this podcast and speaking to individuals about my guide, I used to be getting actually nervous. And the reframe for me was I mentioned, as an alternative of feeling just like the world is about to finish earlier than I stroll into an interview,

Renata Bernarde (50:52)
Are you?

Jon Rosemberg (51:09)
I’m going to say that IT’s similar to a curler coaster. When IT’s beginning to go up and IT sounds, you hear the sound of the curler coaster going up that second earlier than the primary drop, which is, I really actually like that second within the curler coaster journey. That’s one thing that I take pleasure in totally. So I’ve been reframing the identical emotion or the identical sensations in my physique, which is the sweaty palms and the throat closing and the tight chest and the tight shoulders.

I’ve been reframing IT as, nicely, that is the climb in the direction of the suitable, which I really totally take pleasure in. as a result of feelings are constructed and they’re, nicely, the proof is suggesting that feelings are constructed. ⁓ Now we have company in how we interpret IT and the way we labored with our feelings. However earlier than we do any of that, we have to study to acknowledge them and to tame them.

To call them, sorry, to not tame them, to call them. Nicely, title them to tame them. Let’s put IT that approach. So, for males, for instance, for me, for the higher a part of my life, IT was very onerous. Each time I obtained unhappy, I’d simply get offended. I simply begin yelling and get all crimson. As a result of I wasn’t allowed to really feel unhappiness as a person. If I’m not acknowledging my unhappiness, how can I’ve any company to work with that emotion? If I really say,

⁓ this isn’t actually anger. What I’m feeling proper now’s unhappiness. And I acknowledge that and I acknowledge IT, I can say, hey, unhappiness, what are you making an attempt to inform me? What’s the message right here for me? In order that in flip leads us to work extra agentically in the direction of utilizing these feelings, leveraging these feelings, partnering with these feelings to navigate the world in a approach that’s extra significant to us. And that leads us to thriving.

Renata Bernarde (53:06)
Acquired IT. Wow. Sure. ⁓ There’s a lot to unpack. And I believe you talked about, you already know, that gender distinction between women and men as nicely. And we’re seeing good and dangerous issues being written this week. don’t know in case you’re following this about girls reworking the office and being answerable for cancel tradition as a result of they’re too emotional. And I’ll put a number of the hyperlinks about these articles which have.

Jon Rosemberg (53:15)
the identical.

Renata Bernarde (53:34)
come up this week within the episode present notes. ⁓ yeah, that emotional company, I believe is actually vital and making that part of your ⁓ identification, proper? Together with that as a part of the identification which you spoke about.

Jon Rosemberg (53:48)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

acknowledging that as a human, really feel a wide selection of feelings and that these feelings come, they’re messengers. They arrive with lots of actually helpful Information and that feeling the, pay attention, we, by some estimates, we’re uncovered to between 10 million and 100 million bits of Information each second.

solely about 10 to 50 of these 10 million to 100 million bits of Information come into acutely aware consciousness. The remainder of them both we fully ignore or they might present itself by feelings. They could present itself by different kinds of expressions. So for us to have this somatic and cognitive consciousness about how we’re within the second,

is a extremely, actually highly effective approach. That consciousness, IT’s what unlocks what opens the door to the inquiry and the curiosity. And eventually the reframing. However we are able to’t get to reframing with out first going to consciousness and inquiry, proper? First, now we have to truly perceive what we’re experiencing. So, and what finally ends up taking place lots of instances is any individual will come to you and say, Hey, simply subsequent time you’re in an interview, simply suppose such as you’re in a curler coaster. When you like curler coasters, like I simply mentioned, IT’s a pleasant reframe, proper?

However I needed to do the work for that reframe to work for me, proper? And it’s a must to like curler coasters, however that’s an entire totally different scenario. However it’s a must to do work earlier than the reframing works for you. The reframing is the final a part of the method. So that you want foster consciousness, get actually curious, after which the reframe. And IT’s highly effective as a result of IT turns setbacks into stepping stones.

You’re strolling by this muddy world and each time any individual pushes you, as an alternative of simply falling and sitting in your bum and simply being like, my God, I’m executed, proper? Utterly helpless and hopeless. You may say, I can use this setback as a stepping stone, put IT within the mud and prepare for my subsequent one. And right here’s the factor for folk who’re on the lookout for Jobs proper now and scuffling with IT. On this second, the second you’re listening to the podcast is the closest second.

you’ve ever been to your subsequent job. That is the closest second you’ve ever been to your subsequent job. As a result of he’ll come, proper? For many of us, he’ll come.

Renata Bernarde (56:23)
Yeah.

Completely. Jon, that’s such an inspirational solution to form of tie up this dialog. As you’ll be able to inform, I might discuss to you without end. I don’t suppose I’ve even tapped into the questions I despatched you previous to the interview. So apologies for that. However I used to be actually excited to fulfill you and get to know you. I hope we are able to keep in contact. I hope that you’ve…

Jon Rosemberg (56:47)
Completely.

Renata Bernarde (56:49)
another excuse to return on the present. You are actually a buddy of the podcast. So in case you write one other guide or you’ve one other thought that you simply need to share with us, you might be greater than welcome to return on board. Your guide is popping out later this month. This podcast goes out in November. The guide’s popping out ⁓ late November. We may have a hyperlink to people who need to pre-purchase or purchase IT. ⁓

a hyperlink to your web site and no matter different social platforms that you’re a part of, may have a hyperlink within the present notes.

Jon Rosemberg (57:25)
thanks for the questions. And I like the framing ⁓ of job loss as a result of there are such a lot of individuals experiencing this proper now. I believe these are actually vital conversations that must be have, we must be having them extra within the open and extra individuals must have entry to this Information. So thanks for the work that you simply’re doing and thanks for opening the area for me. IT means quite a bit.

Renata Bernarde (57:42)
After all.