AI and Careers Over 40: Why Expertise Nonetheless Issues

Renata Bernarde: Jon thanks a lot for becoming a member of me on this podcast. IT’s not the primary time we attempt to report this, so thanks to your endurance for everybody listening. We did report an episode earlier this yr, and the sound was horrible, and also you by no means noticed IT. So I’m so sorry. I had a beautiful dialog with Jon that no one is aware of about. However Jon used to host a podcast as nicely, so hopefully he’s conversant in these tech points. He hosted the AI podcast for CSIRO. Right here in Australia. He’s additionally revealed two books on AI, which I’m gonna hyperlink beneath in case you wish to learn them. He works now for the Melbourne Enterprise Faculty. He advises boards and C-suite leaders on AI adoption. He’s a former NASA senior engineer, and he’s the previous. Director of Australia’s Nationwide Facility for R&D, AI and Cybersecurity, Robotics, and many others. That’s the CSIRO’s Data61. Jon, did you suppose AI was going to be as is now once you began your profession taking a look at synthetic intelligence again within the day? Was this what you imagined?

Jon Whittle: I completely not. No. I imply I’ve now I preserve counting the years as a result of I’ve now been within the AI area for I believe thirty-two years. I’ve been round fairly

Renata Bernarde: Wow.

Jon Whittle: fairly a very long time. And I believe again then we had the dream of what IT might grow to be, you understand, as we’ve got IT now. You realize, you may simply form of discuss to a machine nearly as if IT’s a human being. However having labored again then to try to make that dream grow to be a actuality, I believe I’d come to the conclusion that IT was by no means gonna occur in my lifetime. So IT simply exhibits simply exhibits how flawed you may be, actually, and simply exhibits how

Jon Whittle: how briskly and rapidly issues instantly shifted as a result of IT actually did occur suddenly.

Renata Bernarde: And IT’s so attention-grabbing as a result of IT’s been three a long time of you curious about synthetic intelligence. And for most individuals, individuals like me, we’ve solely began utilizing IT just a few years in the past. So we’re infants in comparison with you. Do you get bored with explaining to individuals synthetic intelligence? Is IT getting too repetitive or are you additionally studying as you go and issues are evolving very quick for you as nicely?

Jon Whittle: No, I’m I might say I’m positively studying. What might as a result of the character of the Technology has truly modified. So we’re now within the form of generative AI period, which is I believe there’s 5 eras within the historical past of AI. I believe generative AI is form of quantity three. and IT truly works fairly otherwise than what I realized thirty years in the past. They usually’re creating new innovations to make IT higher each single day. So I’ve I’ve been digging in myself simply to verify I’m up to the mark in order that after I clarify IT to individuals, I’m saying the suitable factor and I truly perceive how IT works. ’trigger I

Jon Whittle: nonetheless suppose IT’s truly actually perceive IT’s actually essential that, you understand, any form of senior government no less than truly has some stage of understanding of how AI truly works, ’trigger there’s lots of hype and misinformation on the market. So IT’s IT’s price simply educating your self just a little bit, I believe.

Renata Bernarde: Sure. Properly I used to be educated in synthetic intelligence by science fiction, so I don’t suppose I’m

Jon Whittle: nicely they perhaps not the perfect supply, you understand.

Renata Bernarde: in my her section, you understand, however you understand, I’m an enormous fan of “The Expanse” and Asimov studying and all of those superb science fiction writers, “The Basis”. I used to learn all of these books. I discover IT all fascinating. So I’ve a really romantic view of all the things, which might be not factor. However I used to be additionally earlier this yr once we had our dialog very frightened about synthetic intelligence impacting my work as a profession coach and my shoppers’ work as nicely. And also you had been way more optimistic. You calmed me down. Are you extra involved in the present day than you had been once we spoke earlier this yr?

Jon Whittle: No, I’m not truly. I believe the overall inhabitants in all probability is. so once more, superb how a lot has occurred since we final spoke. I

Jon Whittle: suppose the AI instruments have continued to develop by way of their capabilities at a breakneck pace. however then we’ve had lots of protection within the media just lately of so-called AI brokers going rogue and hacking into authorities techniques and issues like that, which is an actual concern. the these brokers are fairly highly effective now. And so the truth that they’ll discover safety vulnerabilities that will have been there for a very long time, I believe IT is a priority and IT’s one thing that each board ought to be excited about. however then we additionally hear about you understand, you understand, X engineers from Anthropic or OpenAI claiming that there’s a ten% likelihood that AI goes to result in human extinction by the tip of the last decade, which I believe is nonsense. and there’s all types of the explanation why they’re saying these items, which you understand we could or could not get into. However I believe that in all probability that what I’ve what I’m noticing is the overall worry and anxiousness ranges amongst individuals have risen considerably. Curiously sufficient, n not as a lot about Jobs. I believe once we final talked, IT was all about AI taking our Jobs. However IT’s

Jon Whittle: IT’s instantly grow to be even greater than that. And IT’s not simply IT’s gonna take our Jobs, IT’s gonna take our total lives. so yeah, plenty of individuals with worry and anxiousness on the market, I believe. However I’m s I’m nonetheless optimistic. I believe lots of what’s on the market within the media is overblown, overhyped. And I believe we’d like important pondering greater than ever, I believe, to actually query a few of these issues which can be being stated and I discover IT fairly ironic as a result of we regularly speak about AI as taking away our important pondering, however we actually want IT now greater than ever, I believe.

Renata Bernarde: Sure. Properly, I believe what’s occurring that’s fairly unusual is that the businesses which can be constructing highly effective AI techniques are telling us how extraordinary these techniques are, however then additionally asking governments to assist regulate them. In order atypical individuals, how ought to we interpret that? What’s happening?

Jon Whittle: So I don’t suppose anyone actually is aware of what’s happening, apart from the individuals saying these issues. I did write a weblog article about this just lately although. We perhaps we are able to hyperlink that within the present notes as a result of I believe that’s I

Renata Bernarde: Let’s try this.

Jon Whittle: suppose there’s just a few doable issues that could be happening. and I’m I’m not gonna make a prediction about which one is true. IT may very well be simply all an enormous advertising stunt, you understand. Two of the large tech corporations, Anthropic and OpenAI, try to go in the direction of IPO. So there by saying, you understand, these machines we’re creating are so harmful. you understand, and we’re the one ones that may make them protected, subsequently you higher spend money on us simply earlier than our IPO. I believe that may very well be a part of IT. I believe regulatory seize may very well be one other side of IT, which is the place they see that regulation is coming and so they wish to. Outline the regulation themselves in order that IT is advantageous to them. And I believe we’ve seen that play out within the US with the with the president’s White Home AI Accord, which is actually all of the tech CEOs coming collectively and deciding to self-regulate. We all know that doesn’t work. IT may very well be that these individuals actually consider that these techniques are so harmful that they might result in human extinction. I believe lots of them. in all probability do genuinely consider that. and the opposite the opposite factor that’s happening, I believe there’s there’s an odd form of cult like group that pervades a lot of Silicon Valley, which has been broadly written about, known as efficient altruism, which IT has been described as a cult and IT’s this perception that You realize, we actually ought to be excited about future generations and IT’s the very form of long-termist views. and IT’s IT’s a bit sinister and form of bizarre, to be sincere. however IT leads

Jon Whittle: to lots of these, lots of the individuals making these extinction claims are by some means linked to this efficient altruist motion, together with you understand, the founders of Anthropic. They acquired a few of their they

Renata Bernarde: Actually?

Jon Whittle: acquired a few of their very early investments. From this motion. Sam Bankman-Fried, the crypto legal, was an enormous believer in that motion. So there’s there’s there’s a bizarre form of ideology form of pervading a lot of Silicon Valley as nicely, which I believe once more, I’m not saying that’s the one purpose, however that may very well be taking part in into issues as nicely.

Renata Bernarde: Okay. let’s speak about that however from not from a cult perspective, however

Renata Bernarde: from a dad and mom perspective. Proper? You’re a father, I’m I’m a mother.

Renata Bernarde: And I my shoppers are normally, round our age. They usually discuss to me about their careers, however then they’re speaking about their youngsters as nicely, what’s your view on what’s going to occur to junior individuals, individuals coming into the workforce now, if AI does the work that beforehand was clerical and admin and what do you suppose we’re going to be hiring youthful individuals for today? And are universities making ready for that?

Jon Whittle: Yeah. so quite a bit to say about that. So I believe very first thing I might say is that I imply I work with organizations day-after-day who’re making an attempt to undertake AI. And I might say that for probably the most half they’re very a lot struggling to get worth out of IT. So most organizations spent the final couple of years perhaps rolling out some Copilot licenses, performing some company coaching, doing just a few proof of ideas. However going from there to form of enterprise-wide AI adoption at scale with clear ROI is a very completely different story. And the explanation IT’s a very completely different story is as a result of on the finish of the day, organizations are ecosystems of individuals. And a lot depends on individuals speaking to one another, influencing one another, negotiating choices. And so forth. And that’s not one thing that AI can substitute. And I don’t suppose IT will be capable to substitute that anytime quickly. in 20 years, who is aware of? However no less than for the subsequent form of 5 to 10 years. by way of our children and form of what future expertise we’d like, look, I believe that’s once more a very attention-grabbing query as a result of Th there’s a typical narrative on the market that there are specific human traits corresponding to judgment and creativity and empathy which can be uniquely human and AI received’t ever be capable to take. I’m truly unsure I agree with that. IT was the case that we, again twenty years in the past we all the time stated, AI can by no means be artistic. That’s a uniquely human factor. However now we’ve acquired AI creating art work. motion pictures even and so forth. And you’ll argue about whether or not that’s creativity or not, however I believe there’s definitely some examples on the market the place you would present a few of that AI generated work to individuals and so they wouldn’t

Renata Bernarde: Once more.

Jon Whittle: be capable to inform that IT was AI generated. So there’s a case to be made that, you understand, human creativity is completely different than AI creativity, however I believe AI may be artistic in sure methods. Equally with empathy, I don’t suppose that’s uniquely human both. there’s been research finished that say in case you examine an AI physician to a human physician, the AI physician is usually extra empathetic as noticed by sufferers. And the identical with judgment, you understand, IT’s we’re seeing AI make its method into legislation courts. I don’t suppose IT’ll be too lengthy earlier than we’ve got, no less than for form of low threat choices, some form of automated decide in legislation courts. So we’ve acquired all these traits that we all the time thought had been uniquely human, and so they’ve form of been eroded little by little. I typically consider IT’s like IT’s like we’re humanity is the cliff on the finish of the ocean and the waves are coming in slowly, however IT does occur slowly, proper? After which instantly

Jon Whittle: there’ll be an enormous storm and the cliff form of collapses. I believe that we’re that’s form of what’s occurring with these human traits. That each one sounds very detrimental. However to be extra optimistic, I believe I believe for me the 2 issues that may stay are our human to human communication. As a result of once more, organizations are until we utterly rewrite how organizations work, which I don’t see occurring anytime quickly, they rely a lot on individuals coming collectively, attaining consensus, convincing of concepts and so forth. And that’s not gonna go away. And I believe what would grow to be extra essential each for our children but in addition for us within the quick time period is form of hustle tradition. I believe this has already been already been a pattern in employment. You realize, we don’t have lifelong Jobs anymore. You realize, we’ve got many, many alternative Jobs in our profession and we’ve got to form of reinvent ourselves a number of instances. I believe that’s going to grow to be true much more. so I might be leaning into not essentially turning into an entrepreneur, however studying a few of these entrepreneurial expertise so as to determine in a work out in a really unsure surroundings, very advanced surroundings, get issues finished. So I’d I’d say, yeah, communication and hustle tradition.

Renata Bernarde: Attention-grabbing. I had dinner with just a few associates Saturday night time and two of them had only in the near past modified Jobs to do AI implementation. And IT’s attention-grabbing that, you understand, considered one of them is kind of comfy with that, had finished that earlier than. The opposite one was like I’m not likely positive. I believe I’ve imposter syndrome, ‘Trigger IT is new for individuals to be implementing AI in organizations. So if these are people who could be excellent at transformation on the whole, however not AI particularly, for instance. And we had been form of laughing about this and saying how a lot AI has tricked us, you understand, if we’re taking a look at issues and we don’t know if IT’s AI or not, and the way come you’re now going to go AI for this group? Ha. So IT’s humorous, however IT’s not, you understand, IT’s one thing that’s new and IT’s one thing I’ve seen with a few of my shoppers as nicely, feeling that imposter syndrome when they’re imagined to be. both main AI implementation or adopting IT and type of main a staff that should implement IT or must undertake IT and never feeling assured. What would you suggest to those company professionals?

Jon Whittle: Yeah, good query. So to start with, there’s lots of new AI Jobs on the market, which is form of attention-grabbing in itself, proper? As a result of we had been informed

Jon Whittle: that AI was going to take all our Jobs. And but, there’s truly some actually good proof on the market. So there was an Australian authorities report that got here out that stated there’s no proof that AI is resulting in mass layoffs, no less than not but. And there was a report from CSIRO that really stated that the businesses which can be adopting AI probably the most are literally hiring probably the most. so there’s some attention-grabbing tendencies. however definitely what I’ve seen is there are many new classes of Jobs now. chief AI officers or heads of AI have instantly grow to be very, quite common. I believe I noticed a stat the opposite day that stated that forty-five % of Australian companies now have an equal position, however then there’s an entire bunch of roles to assist that. My favourite is known as AI Enablement Officer, which I’ve seen fairly a bit. As a result of I re I believe, you I they’re enabling the group to undertake AI, however IT seems like they’re enabling the AI, proper? So IT sounds a bit unusual to me.

Jon Whittle: however yeah, there’s lot there’s plenty of new AI Jobs on the market. And I believe to your level, there merely aren’t sufficient individuals who truly actually know something about AI to fill these Jobs. And so they’re by definition being full of people who come from a enterprise background or a metamorphosis background or a change administration background. They usually’re being put accountable for, you understand, rolling out this AI throughout the group, however we’re actually with out the no fault of their very own with out the background. And I believe IT’s fairly a pressured place to be in as a result of lots of boards and CEOs are very gung-ho about AI. They go off to journeys to Silicon Valley and so they see all this superb stuff and so they get informed that IT can simply occur similar to that. And they also come again after which they inform their AI enablement officer, transfer sooner, transfer sooner. Why can’t we simply get this finished? However IT’s not that simple since you’re coping with heaps and many individuals in a company and once more you need to form of persuade them, negotiate with them. So these Jobs I believe are there. I believe they’re fairly robust. And yeah, positively nothing to be ashamed about in having imposter syndrome ’trigger I believe heaps and many individuals are in that place proper now.

Renata Bernarde: So if any person’s listening to this and driving house, they’re fifty one thing, they’ve had a profitable company profession, they’re good at what they do, they’re watching AI develop and so they’re beginning to wonder if the experience that they’ve had will type of be valued within the subsequent 5, ten years of their profession. What would you inform that individual to begin doing in the present day?

Jon Whittle: So I believe the entire issues that they’ve finished are nonetheless priceless. however along with that, I believe IT has grow to be a non-negotiable for individuals to have AI expertise proper now. so I’ll offer you an instance of this. I used to be working a technique workshop for a company yesterday, and IT was very clear coming from the CEO that He was fairly annoyed that his fast management staff was not utilizing AI sufficient. And in his thoughts, you understand, there are all these form of productiveness advantages to be gained. And, you understand, he’s he was monitoring, you understand, he’s acquired stats on they’ve acquired an inner instrument and he was monitoring how many individuals are utilizing IT, once they’re utilizing IT, and finger pointing on the ones that ones that weren’t. So I believe IT’s grow to be a non-negotiable as a result of that CEO is just not the one one like that. I believe each everyone seems to be like that. So I might say you do have to construct up these AI expertise. Now I reckon just about everyone I do know now makes use of AI, generative AI. I nonetheless sometimes discover one or two people who have by no means used IT. However they’re uncommon. They’re a uncommon breed now. However I might say that most individuals aren’t utilizing the total functionality of IT. You realize, they could be utilizing twenty %. they’re utilizing IT to summarize paperwork or do some form of fundamental evaluation or one thing like that. However there’s a lot extra that you are able to do with the instruments. you understand, in case you’ve not performed with issues like Claude Cowork or Claude Code and even letting Claude take management of your Browser, and I solely point out Claude as a result of that’s the instrument that I have a tendency to make use of probably the most. The opposite AI instruments can do that as nicely. so check out the extra superior options, I might say, and try to place your self to be the one that, sure, you’ve acquired area experience, sure, you’re an government, however you are also a few steps forward of everyone else by way of how you utilize AI. the place you utilize AI and use IT responsibly as nicely.

Renata Bernarde: Mm-hmm. When the CEO was mentioning, he finds individuals are not utilizing sufficient, is IT Copilot? Is IT once they’re adopting IT internally in a workspace, they’ll solely observe what they’re permitting their workers to implement. Do you discover that there’s a lot of insurance policies round what’s what kind of AI you should use within the company surroundings?

Jon Whittle: There may be. So I see a few various things happening in organizations. So lots of them are simply rolling out Copilot.

Jon Whittle: and the issue with Copilot is that there’s plenty of options there that could be enabled or disabled by the group. And lots of them could also be disabled for good purpose for safety or privateness functions,

Jon Whittle: for instance. And so that you then get into an attention-grabbing scenario the place individuals could be utilizing extra succesful instruments at house. of their private life and so they’re doing all this superb stuff after which they wish to go to work and do that incredible stuff at work as nicely and so they can’t as a result of the instruments that they’re utilizing are locked down. In order that’s a method organizations do doing IT. There’s fairly just a few organizations on the market although as nicely which have truly constructed on high of the generative AI instruments to have a form of an enterprise model for themselves and so they could have spent even a few years constructing this issues up. And IT has fairly safe entry to the group’s information and so forth. So you may truly do quite a bit with these, however could be a bit extra of a studying curve there as a result of they are usually a bit extra form of bespoke. So and then you definitely’ll you’ll additionally see organizations on the market who’re even leaning into the open supply side of AI, and slightly than going to an enormous vendor, they’ll truly take one of many open supply fashions, they’ll set up IT themselves. have their very own form of computing infrastructure to try this. Execs and cons of that, I believe. however yeah, IT’s form of IT’s IT’s IT’s all around the mark, I believe.

Renata Bernarde: Yeah. Properly you defined is precisely what I hear from my shoppers that they wish to use at work however they only don’t like Copilot. So that they find yourself working from house on the facet utilizing Claude or ChatGPT after which IT doesn’t present that they’re truly utilizing IT as a result of they only haven’t actually adjusted to Copilot. And IT’s attention-grabbing, isn’t IT? As a result of I keep in mind again in 2017 going to a Salesforce occasion in San Francisco and listening to a lot about their funding in AI and now we see Salesforce not doing so nicely in contrast

Renata Bernarde: to a few of their rivals and different companies. What’s IT that makes a s an organization do nicely in NI AI versus Is IT the adoption? I don’t know, as a result of Salesforce was nicely adopted up till now, after which rapidly is you understand there’s an actual push in opposition to utilizing IT and different rivals taking on. What makes an organization’s funding in AI succeed in comparison with others?

Jon Whittle: Yeah, enjoyable humorous you need to ask that query, as a result of I’ve spent lots of time taking a look at precisely this.

Jon Whittle: and there’s there’s truly numerous good analysis on the market now that has checked out AI adoption at scale inside organizations and has checked out what works and what doesn’t. considered one of my absolute favourite items of analysis on this comes out of Stanford Digital Financial system Lab. IT’s known as the Enterprise AI Playbook, and so they went into 51 corporations that had adopted AI and actually form of unpicked what they did that made IT profitable. I’ve taken that analysis plus plenty of different analysis plus my very own expertise on the market, and I’ve I’ve provide you with what I name 14 dimensions of AI adoption, which is 14 issues that you could do to get to make AI work at scale inside your group. And most of them are nothing to do with the Technology. So eighty % of them are non technical, I might say. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde: actually? Okay. I’m tremendous curious now. Give me an instance.

Jon Whittle: Yeah, so that they fall into three classes. So management and imaginative and prescient, individuals and tradition and governance and belief. So from a management and imaginative and prescient perspective, the from the highest down, the group has to have a has a really clear understanding of why IT desires to use AI, what IT’s making an attempt to attain, you understand, a technique, which lots of organizations don’t have as a result of they we had been informed that you simply simply make the instruments accessible to individuals and other people will experiment after which nice issues will occur. They’re now realizing that’s not fairly. case. So there’s way more of a name now to say, you understand, what are the actual enterprise issues we’re making an attempt to unravel? And we’re AI that helpers and being very, very clear on that. And so having a robust imaginative and prescient. Then there’s individuals and tradition, which is frankly good old style stuff about any transformation, you understand, good change administration, good communications. There are just a few form of AI particular elements like, you understand, do you want human oversight of all the things that AI does. We’re form of informed that you simply do as a result of AI might hallucinate, proper? So you need to have a human within the loop. However truly the analysis exhibits that in case you put a human within the loop on a regular basis, you received’t get any financial savings since you’ve simply moved somebody’s job from creating issues to checking the work of an AI. And that really you could set issues up with an escalation mannequin in order that 80% of the time you simply form of let the AI get on with the job. And if IT’s low threat and also you save your human oversight for the excessive threat instances. additionally in that class there’s issues like are you planning for what to do with any time financial savings that you simply may get from AI? So, you understand, individuals will say they may say, for instance, nicely, I’m saving two hours per week from utilizing AI, however does that imply that they’re going to the seaside on a Friday afternoon ’trigger they’ve saved two hours? No. IT implies that they’re in all probability spending extra time in pointless conferences or producing paperwork that no one’s going to learn, proper? So the organizations which can be profitable are those that actively plan to say, nicely, our workforce goes to alter this time this save this a lot time, and that is what we’re going to do with that point. After which the third class is governance and belief, which is the place all of the stuff about safety and privateness and so forth is available in, turns into tremendous essential. For these organizations who’re making an attempt to implement AI brokers, as a result of they’re very non-deterministic. They, you understand, you’ve acquired to get the guardrails proper, even at an organizational stage. And that requires lots of effort, lots of experimentation, and lots of fixed monitoring. So,

Jon Whittle: yeah, these are the three issues management and imaginative and prescient, individuals and tradition and governance and belief.

Renata Bernarde: One of many issues that I discover that’s aligned with what you’ve simply stated is a few of my shoppers who’re chief individuals officers beginning to l n not solely a few of them networking actually closely with their counterparts in IT, which could be very unusual as you

Renata Bernarde: in all probability keep in mind. However I’ve one which now’s managing the tech staff.

Jon Whittle: Yeah, and that may be a new pattern. so I believe

Renata Bernarde: Sure. IT’s fascinating.

Jon Whittle: I believe there’s a case to be made that you need to put your chief individuals officer accountable for an AI transformation as a result of most

Jon Whittle: of IT is about individuals and there are precedents to this. So Atlassian, huge Australian tech firm has finished this. I believe their chief individuals officer is has now a title of chief individuals officer and an AI enablement officer.

Renata Bernarde: yeah.

Jon Whittle: Most don’t do IT. I nonetheless would say ninety % of the organizations I work with put the CTO or the CIO in cost. however y yeah, on the on the very least, as you say, you want the chief individuals officer working very, very intently with the CIO. however I believe there’s a case to be made that if IT’s the suitable CPO, that the CPO might truly lead the entire thing.

Renata Bernarde: Yeah, that’s fascinating. we mentioned what individuals ought to do, you understand, in the present day and begin now. What would you inform them to not do?

Jon Whittle: Don’t panic.

Renata Bernarde: Don’t be like Renata early within the yr. Don’t panic. Okay.

Jon Whittle: Yeah, look I get I don’t don’t panic. I imply take all the things you learn with a with just a little little bit of a pinch of salt. you understand, and I as a result of I believe worry can result in inaction. You realize, we grow to be the form of the bunny rabbit within the headlights, simply not figuring out which solution to go. And that’s not gonna enable you in any respect. So I believe try to Take a form of progress mindset, be optimistic about these things, and acknowledge that every one the abilities that you simply constructed up in an government profession are simply as priceless as they ever had been. IT’s simply that you could add a brand new layer on high of that, which is to form of construct up your AI expertise as nicely. And I’ve seen individuals, I’ve had associates and colleagues who’ve finished this actually efficiently. Perhaps they’ve been laid off and so they’ve had time. trying to find new roles and so they’ve used that point nicely to upskill themselves in AI. IT doesn’t imply they’ll essentially go to an AI position. they may go to the identical form of position they’d earlier than, however they’ll be 5 steps forward of everyone else in that group since you truly do want time to be taught that stuff. IT’s not fast. And most people who find themselves working don’t have that point, proper? They don’t have they d they don’t have the time

Renata Bernarde: I agree. Yeah.

Jon Whittle: to take, you understand half a day each different day to be taught these things. So that you’re in truly in some ways an expensive place in case you’re between roles, ’trigger you do have that point and in case you use IT correctly, you would enter your new position very well forward of your of your colleagues.

Renata Bernarde: Sure, sure. I’ve some nice examples of that with my shoppers. and IT’s an upskill that’s completely well worth the funding throughout a transition in case you can afford IT. And albeit, i after I say you may afford IT, a few of them you don’t have to pay. You realize, you may simply discover free packages on-line to do. I’ve a consumer in Europe who spent just a few months doing a government AI program abroad that yeah I believe was actually essential for him for his transition. And one right here in Australia that spent six months doing all the things he might discover that was free. As a result of he couldn’t afford to pay something and ended up with two job provides and that

Renata Bernarde: are that had been associated to his AI coaching. So I believed that was actually

Jon Whittle: Yeah, and I

Renata Bernarde: Unbelievable.

Jon Whittle: look I prob I in all probability shouldn’t say this as a result of I’m at Melbourne Enterprise Faculty and we’ve got AI programs for execs, that are fantastic. I educate a few of them. However

Jon Whittle: you understand, you don’t want a course to be taught the stuff. That’s the fantastic thing about AI. I believe you may be taught IT by

Renata Bernarde: However some individuals just like the construction, some individuals just like the n and the collegiality. Yeah, yeah.

Jon Whittle: Positive. Yeah. So I might I might by no means say don’t do IT, however you may truly get a you may get a good distance by simply experimenting. and, you understand, w the way in which that I as a result of I’m nonetheless experimenting as nicely. And so the way in which I attempt to do IT is that if I’ve acquired a activity and I’m about to form of delve into IT, I’ll simply cease myself and say, I’m wondering if AI might try this after which give IT a go and typically IT works and typically IT doesn’t, however you be taught quite a bit.

Jon Whittle: And also you in all probability in case you are gonna take a proper course you’d I’d nonetheless say do some experimentation for your self first since you’ll then go in significantly better ready. You received’t go in as a clean sheet of paper into that course. You’ll have you ever’ll have some lived expertise of making an attempt to make use of IT, which most individuals have these days anyway. however

Jon Whittle: yeah, you may get a good distance with out spending any cash, I believe.

Renata Bernarde: And we are able to be taught from one another as a result of we’re all experimenting individually, IT cocooned in our places of work. So the benefit of being a profession coach serving to so many individuals is I realized a lot about how my shoppers are utilizing AI in several methods. And I used to be like, I hadn’t considered that. Let me strive that. So having

Jon Whittle: Yeah. Yeah. That’s proper.

Renata Bernarde: conversations as nicely is so good. Let’s return to job looking out and AI. Did you find yourself watching the 60 Minutes on Sunday night time? You probably did?

Jon Whittle: I did. Sure, did. I did.

Renata Bernarde: Okay. I’d love to speak to you about IT then. As a result of I felt like they tried actually onerous to dramatize the scenario, however I wasn’t actually satisfied IT was that dramatic. Was IT the identical to you, or is IT as a result of IT’s normalized for me as a result of that I take care of that day-after-day?

Jon Whittle: Look, IT positively was the identical to me. And look, I’ve been on a few of these packages. I’ve been interviewed for a few of these packages. So I understand how they work. they go in with a really explicit narrative that they wish to push. And they’re going to I’ve I’ve had with some journos some fairly aggressive questioning to try to get me to say one thing that may align with that narrative. And you understand, there’s all of the people who had been interviewed there, there may have been fairly heavy enhancing of what they

Jon Whittle: stated and they’ll have cherry picked the issues that match that narrative. look I believe there have been some actual tales in there, proper, that are form of actually unhappy, you understand, individuals making use of for tons of of Jobs and never getting any calls again. So there’s there’s, as you’ll know higher than anyone, there are positively these form of tales on the market. IT wasn’t clear to me, I don’t suppose they made the case that IT was the AI essentially that was rejecting them. That the proof there was a bit skinny. that’s to not say that there can’t be AI techniques that do have bias, as a result of we’ve recognized that’s been an issue all through the historical past of AI. However there’s additionally instances the place AI may be much less biased than people. In actual fact, Barb Hyman, who was Barb Hyman, who was interviewed on that present, who’s the CEO of Sapia I do know not nicely, however

Renata Bernarde: She’s nice, by the way in which. Are you aware her personally? Yeah.

Jon Whittle: we’ve been on an awards panel collectively.

Jon Whittle: so she arrange Sapia.ai fairly a while in the past.

Jon Whittle: And actually, they one of many outcomes the early outcomes that they’d was that their AI hiring instruments had been truly much less biased in the direction of girls than you’d sometimes discover with human recruiters. so I believe I believe my takeaway from the entire thing was that as ever with AI, you are able to do IT nicely or you are able to do IT badly. and

Jon Whittle: in case you do IT badly you’ll create issues. and in case you do IT nicely you may resolve some issues.

Renata Bernarde: Sure. So for these of you listening and also you don’t know what we’re speaking about, 60 Minutes Australia did a an investigation on AI and recruitment and potential gender bias and different biases of applicant monitoring techniques for recruitment. and so they had in case you’re abroad, they’d a case examine in Australia, one in England and one within the US. So IT was very worldwide. I believe they try this on objective in order that they’ll repackage IT for different markets. IT’s accessible on YouTube. I’ll put the hyperlink beneath if you wish to watch IT. One factor that occurred that I believed was actually attention-grabbing was the American job candidate. I forgot his title, however he was saying I’ve I preserve making use of for Jobs in Finance. He’s in an government in Finance and I get rejected actually, actually rapidly. I’ve seen that the applicant monitoring system ha is quite common in its workday. Workday is a quite common applicant monitoring system. So I believe I’ve been pink flagged by Workday and so they pink flagged me. And I stated, Properly, that may’t be as a result of workday is a software program that you simply purchase as a as a company and then you definitely implement IT in your HR division and the HR division designs IT, they’re not gonna be sharing names between corporations, proper? In order that’s what I believed. I th and that’s I believe what was implied within the 60 Minutes investigation that

Renata Bernarde: he had been blackmarked by workday. And I stated, Properly, that may’t be. And I’m dictating this, so I’m I’m speaking to my ChatGPT and saying, look, this could’t be proper. You realize, IT’s not c this lawsuit goes to go nowhere. And ChatGPT stated, No, no, you I believe there’s a case right here and I’m like, okay, ChatGPT inform me what you what you suppose is the put the potential authorized case. The potential authorized case may very well be the workday coding and design of the system. doubtlessly being biased, perhaps workday must readjust its software program in order that the bias doesn’t constantly occur, you understand? And I’m like, I hadn’t thought

Jon Whittle: Yeah, IT’s yeah.

Renata Bernarde: of that.

Jon Whittle: Yeah. I imply and that is this has all the time been an issue with AI as a result of on the finish of the day, AI is statistics. And IT’s

Jon Whittle: solely pretty much as good because the tr the information that IT’s educated on. So you may return proper to I overlook when IT was, however a few a long time in the past, there was a system known as COMPAS within the US that was utilized by parole boards to assist make choices about whether or not a legal would re offend or not. And they’d grant parole or not based mostly on that. and IT was utilized in

Renata Bernarde: Sort of a “Minority Report” scenario. Keep in mind that film we talked?

Jon Whittle: nicely not yeah, I do rem that was extra I believe form of th nicely I suppose that was additionally prediction. Yeah. This was in a really

Renata Bernarde: Bear in mind, Renata learns AI by science fiction in motion pictures, Jon.

Jon Whittle: There you go. There you go. However IT’s that system was used for quite a lot of years after which till any person did a form of retro retrospective examine on IT, and so they discovered that the system was twice as more likely to flag black defendants as reoffenders as whites. And in order that was one of many very early examples of those techniques having bias in them. Now, there was an enormous quantity of labor since to be sure to get the curated information set that’s represented Of the pattern inhabitants. And so these points don’t happen wherever close to as a lot as they used to. However that’s to not say they’ll’t occur. And

Jon Whittle: there’s definitely plenty of examples on the market of the place bias has occurred. However the different factor that struck me about that 60 Minutes episode, and I’d be involved in your tackle this as a result of. All these people who they had been interviewing would say issues like, nicely, I despatched out 100 purposes or 2 hundred purposes and I didn’t hear something again. I’m nonetheless on the lookout for a job. And I used to be simply pondering, you understand, in what world do you suppose you’re going to get a job simply by throwing an entire bunch of purposes on the market? you could

Renata Bernarde: No. Yeah.

Jon Whittle: you could activate your community and discuss to individuals and you understand, you understand, you utilize your human communication expertise to face out from the gang, not simply throwing a CV. within the deluge of all the opposite CVs which can be on the market.

Renata Bernarde: Properly, the scenario hasn’t modified earlier than AI and after AI. IT’s the identical. Earlier than AI, individuals used to ship tons of of purposes and listen to nothing again as nicely. Sure, the size of job purposes has elevated. I believe what has occurred is as a result of you could have Claude and ChatGPT serving to you write purposes, you’re feeling like you are able to do extra. There

Renata Bernarde: is that this sense that you simply preserve your self busy by simply the amount of the variety of purposes. And there’s no barrier of entry for job purposes. Anyone can ship a job software. What has occurred is extra individuals are sending extra job purposes now as a result of they’ll use their time extra productively on the weekend by asking ChatGPT to spit out various kinds of resumes and ship them out to completely different Jobs. IT you received’t get a job from that. You received’t get a job from that.

Jon Whittle: No, appropriate. And I can keep in mind I can keep in mind again in two thousand 5 and I used to be going for my first educational job and I despatched out not tons of, however I despatched out about 45 purposes to numerous form of universities all around the world, pondering, you understand, I’ve acquired a PhD, you understand, I’ve acquired all this expertise, you understand, IT’ll I’ll I’ll have I’ll have them biting off my arm and I’ll have my selection of which college to go to, proper? I acquired zero response from any of them and I used to be completely depressed. however I form of picked myself up and I stated I’ve to alter my method right here. And so I began reaching out to my community and any person knew any person at a college in Virginia within the US that they had been on the lookout for any person that matched my profile and I ended up going to work there. So I believe you’re proper. In lots of in i in some ways, the sport hasn’t modified.

Renata Bernarde: No, no.

Jon Whittle: IT was all the time the case that in case you simply took a Scattergun method, then you definitely’re not gonna achieve success.

Renata Bernarde: However even in case you come to me, and I’ve mentioned this earlier than on the podcast, Jon, even in case you come to me and also you say, Renata, I don’t have a community. Don’t kill me now. Don’t kill me now. I don’t have IT but. I can’t I can’t use my community, okay? Then you need to grow to be completely wonderful at job purposes. And turning into completely wonderful at job purposes is a recreation. You possibly can gamify IT. You

Renata Bernarde: don’t want ChatGPT or Claude to do IT. You may get a highlighter and spotlight the job description, the key phrases and all of the essential issues which can be there. After which you could be certain IT’s in your cowl letter and in your resume. And if IT’s not there, you’re not gonna get the job. That’s what we’ve got bottified. That’s what you understand the ATS system has. facilitated for recruiters. Recruiters don’t want to make use of their human eye to look if any person has an MBA, if they’ve no less than 5 years of expertise on this space, if they’ve been a Finance supervisor earlier than or venture supervisor earlier than. So you could embrace the key phrases there for IT to be picked up on the opposite facet of the funnel. And earlier than AI, that’s how I used to show individuals. In actual fact, if individuals purchase the Reset Your Profession Framework, which is a brief course that I’ve, IT’s nonetheless there. As a result of I believe IT’s essential so that you can be taught to do IT manually so you may perceive how the applicant monitoring system is designed and developed and works anyway. And

Renata Bernarde: I believe that that is essential information for individuals making use of that sure, you should use your community, you need to use your community. and IT was actually attention-grabbing as a result of the primary instance was a recruiter who couldn’t get a job. And there’s an irony in that. In actual fact, we’ve got an episode with a recruiter from the UK who misplaced her job after which was horrified at how she was handled as a candidate and ghosted and by no means heard again, didn’t get any suggestions. IT actually modified her philosophy of how she was going to work as nicely and make

Renata Bernarde: positive she humanized her subsequent job and she or he’s nonetheless very energetic on TikTok, offering wonderful recommendation on her TikTok account. So there was that case and that one requires you to h use your community, sure, but in addition be excellent at making use of for Jobs in that type of gamified method. The second candidate was any person who was in vogue and luxurious manufacturers. You can’t apply for Jobs with no community.

Jon Whittle: Mm. Yeah, yeah.

Renata Bernarde: I’ve labored with individuals in that space. I imply, you as an educational, in case you don’t have a community, you may’t get a job.

Jon Whittle: Yeah, completely not. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde: No. So what did she do? I believed IT was sensible. She mainly created some IT was sensible however very onerous to do for lots of people, which is take management of your model and create your personal content material. For those who

Renata Bernarde: don’t have a community that you could depend on, then you could begin now. And she or he began utilizing social media. I don’t know what IT was, if IT was Instagram or TikTok. IT wasn’t LinkedIn as a result of for vogue trade, LinkedIn is just not actually that related. However she began creating content material and was discovered by any person after which acquired a job. In order that publicity is one thing that folks really feel actually reluctant to do.

Renata Bernarde: You had been very energetic on LinkedIn and also you now have a Substack

Jon Whittle: I do.

Renata Bernarde: How do you’re feeling about that? And the way do you’re feeling about different individuals doing IT and creating content material?

Jon Whittle: Look, I believe look I began IT some years in the past. I used to be lucky sufficient to be given a bit some coaching in construct a model on social media. And I believe earlier than that coaching I had all of the misconceptions that lots of people had, which is I don’t I don’t have time to submit on social media, IT’s IT’s too onerous, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. However that coaching, quite simple coaching, however IT simply IT simply taught me that, IT doesn’t should take lots of time in your week. so I began there after which I believe I’ve form of leaned into IT notably within the final 12 months usually because since I left my place at CSIRO, my form of company position in case you like, now I’m professor once more but in addition acquired my very own consultancy, IT’s IT’s extra essential than ever. and one of many issues I’ve primarily realized there’s that we are able to we are able to fear quite a bit about having the proper submit and never offending anyone. you form of should recover from that, I believe, and simply, you understand, you we’re we’re all human beings, we’ve all acquired brains, we’ve all acquired attention-grabbing issues to say. And if IT’s not attention-grabbing, the you’ll you’ll you’ll quickly discover out. So now I in all probability submit in the course of the week just about day-after-day, which in case you informed me 5 years in the past I might try this, I’d be like, no method, do I’ve time for that? I’ve additionally began working my very own Substack weblog now, which is that’s a distinct factor as a result of IT’s for much longer, proper? And I might say my method to that could be very completely different. So on LinkedIn, I believe I’m actively making an attempt to develop. following. and I do watch just a little bit, you understand, which posts succeed and which don’t, however I don’t let that form of affect me an excessive amount of. However on my Substack weblog, I’m not I’m not likely actively making an attempt to develop a following. IT was extra one thing I wished to do for me as a result of I discovered that I had all these things in my head and IT was like noise in my head and I simply wanted to get IT out of my head. And I discovered that writing IT down was in a great way to try this. After which, you understand, IT’s a simple subsequent step simply to form of submit that on Substack. Substack. In order that’s been fairly attention-grabbing as a result of I’m nonetheless form of studying how Substack works. I’m not monetizing something proper now. though individuals do. and IT’s pe individuals kinda discover you by some means. I imply IT’s I’ve acquired I’ve solely acquired like seven hundred subscribers now, so IT’s IT’s not like huge. However IT’s attention-grabbing that IT kinda goes by phases the place IT actually Does I actually don’t get any new subscribers for some time after which instantly IT’ll form of bounce for causes I can’t clarify. however once more, I’m form of do I’m I’m doing IT for me and I’m I’m having fun with the writing. I do use AI to assist me typically as nicely, which has grow to be fairly a controversial factor. however yeah, I completely suggest individuals making an attempt to form of recover from there. Once more, in all probability a little bit of imposter syndrome. You realize, I don’t have something attention-grabbing to say, however I believe we’ve all acquired attention-grabbing issues to say.

Renata Bernarde: I agree. I’m an enormous fan of lengthy type writing to determine status and I

Renata Bernarde: you understand, actually suggest my shoppers who’re establishing themselves as consultants of their fields or in the event that they’re studying one thing and so they wish to share with others that studying course of and being actually relatable, I discover that posting and writing may be so useful. so I normally Jon, I normally present your posts to my shoppers after I suppose, I

Jon Whittle: nicely thanks.

Renata Bernarde: can’t do IT. I’m not I’m too busy. I’m like, okay, let me present you a few individuals who did IT. usually and do IT very well. And your LinkedIn profile is one which I typically ask them to evaluate. So I’m going to hyperlink your LinkedIn profile within the present notes and your Substack. Let’s see if we are able to get you to bump your subscribers on Substack after this episode. I might love I might love that will help you out with that. And inform me what kind of consultancy you’re doing. Wha how are you serving to organizations today?

Jon Whittle: Yeah, so half I imply, IT’s an attention-grabbing story as a result of I left an government job at CSIRO final November and IT was a aware resolution to depart and IT had been one thing I’d been excited about for some time. So I had you understand, I used to be I used to be working a big R&D staff there, a few thousand individuals throughout the entire of Australia. Actually liked the work, actually attention-grabbing. very a lot the form of factor I’ve been doing my entire profession. However I discovered that I used to be getting invited to go and discuss to boards and to C suites to only assist them perceive this entire AI factor and apply IT correctly. And after doing that for a few years, IT actually acquired me to pondering and IT was like, you understand, perhaps I wish to make a little bit of a change. And the change I wish to make is to assist organizations undertake AI as a result of I believe nonetheless in case you have a look at boards globally, however definitely in Australia, the extent of AI literacy remains to be very, very low. So I discovered that I loved that form of work going into boards, working briefings and workshops and that form of stuff, however I additionally felt that there was an actual want for IT. Then I then I had a problem for myself, which is okay, nicely how do I do that? You realize, do I begin my very own firm and go full time on that? I felt like that was a bit dangerous, frankly, you understand, I’ve my youngsters are nonetheless in main college. nonetheless acquired a mortgage, et cetera. There’s there’s realities, proper? So I ended up and I labored with a profession coach, as you understand, for about

Jon Whittle: 9 months to get to the place I acquired to. However IT was form of a lightweight bulb second, I might say, after I instantly thought, huh, what about enterprise colleges? Now I’m a pc scientist, my I’m I’m a technical individual by background, so enterprise college is just not an surroundings that may usually welcome any person like me. However IT turned out to be time for them to try this as a result of enterprise colleges are having to reinvent themselves. They’re having to consider how will we educate AI to our MBA college students, to our executives, as a result of IT’s altering each aspect of enterprise. And so IT labored out completely ultimately as a result of I’m specializing in doing AI government training now at Melbourne Enterprise Faculty. I really like doing that, however IT’s all I’ve additionally acquired the pliability as a result of IT’s a college to have my very own Firm on the facet. So IT’s known as Goldilocks AI as a result of IT’s about getting AI good, not an excessive amount of, not too little. and I and

Renata Bernarde: love IT.

Jon Whittle: I look, I’ve been once more, I’ve been IT’s again to networking as a result of I don’t actually have a web site for the corporate proper now. I preserve which means to supply one. In actual fact, I keep in mind going into the financial institution and making an attempt to open a enterprise checking account and so they and so they stated, What’s your web site? And I stated, I don’t have one, and so they checked out me humorous as to say, however How do you get shoppers? You realize, I believe they thought I used to be making an attempt to cash launder cash or one thing. IT was one thing a bit dodgy.

Jon Whittle: however as a result of I’ve acquired a community, I don’t want the web site, no less than not now. I’ve acquired individuals coming to me. and I’m not making an attempt to do quantity. I’m making an attempt to do small, form of excessive contact work with boards and government groups and I’ll I’ll do I’ll go in and do some AI technique work or s assist them provide you with an AI governance framework or simply form of common training and literacy round AI. So

Jon Whittle: IT’ll be IT’s IT’s IT’s be attention-grabbing to see whether or not I wish to develop that over time. IT’s simply IT’s simply me and I don’t really need employees proper now. However you understand, ask me once more in a few years little question issues will change, you understand.

Renata Bernarde: I really like that. I’m going to ship this a part of the episode to all of my shoppers who wish to open a enterprise and the very first thing that they wish to do is ready up their web site. And I stated, No, no, no, don’t arrange your web site. Simply go and discuss to individuals

Renata Bernarde: first. I’m actually in opposition to IT. You realize, I believe my very own expertise was that I put an excessive amount of effort into ever I’ve all the time finished this. IT’s not my first rodeo. I did such a fantastic Factor with my first enterprise in Brazil that I acquired award awards for design and IT was so

Renata Bernarde: fantastically put collectively. However that doesn’t deliver you enterprise, you understand, a web site and a pleasant

Jon Whittle: Yeah. No.

Renata Bernarde: emblem. What brings you enterprise is your how relatable you might be, how linked you might be, and also you’re doing IT the suitable method. One factor that I all the time suggest individuals to do if they’re listening to this, and I’ve simply redone mine is consider the framework of the way you’re going to implement no matter IT is that you simply’re consulting. Proper. So designing IT visually for you and perhaps investing in a graphic designer making IT look fairly is simply the perfect factor. I’m I IT’s the perfect funding I’ve ever finished was rent any person to assist me with my YouTube movies. You go watch

Jon Whittle: Properly however

Renata Bernarde: my YouTube movies now. They’re superior.

Jon Whittle: Though you’d be amazed what you are able to do with AI now. I imply I

Jon Whittle: I as a result of I do have a web site that I’ve by no means revealed.

Renata Bernarde: Uh-huh.

Jon Whittle: So I created IT with AI. however AI

Renata Bernarde: I see.

Jon Whittle: created a emblem for me and IT’s actually

Jon Whittle: I do use that. That’s very nice. IT created form of the colour palette and all the things.

Renata Bernarde: superior.

Jon Whittle: I’ve I’ve used AI for video enhancing as nicely.

Jon Whittle: IT’s IT’s IT’s truly superb what IT can do with. video enhancing. You

Jon Whittle: can you may take a twenty minute lengthy video and simply say, I desire a two minute social media promo, put some background music, discover probably the most

Jon Whittle: attention-grabbing components, put some titles and IT does a very superb job. So I’m

Renata Bernarde: This platform right here that we’re utilizing, Riverside, is fantastic. IT

Renata Bernarde: IT does all of the enhancing for me after which I simply evaluate IT. IT does the entire snippets, the quick movies, the captions, provides me thought for titles, for the ki captions for the submit. IT’s excellent. IT’s superb.

Jon Whittle: The one factor you need to watch out of, I discover now, is as a result of my web site I created with AI a few yr in the past, by no means revealed IT. And on the time individuals weren’t actually utilizing AI for web sites. however now everyone is. They usually all look the identical. as a result of in case you use Claude, for instance, which lots of people use, IT tends to make use of the identical form of fonts, the identical form of colour palette. and so I see different web sites. on the market now and like, yep, that was created by Claude. I do know precisely. I

Renata Bernarde: Bought IT.

Jon Whittle: know precise and IT could be a flip off and since there’s fairly a again IT’s fairly a backlash

Jon Whittle: creating in opposition to AI content material, AI slop. So

Jon Whittle: I’m now in two minds about what to do with that web site that’s sitting there as a result of IT’s do I say, Properly truly I’ve acquired a web site, so let’s publish IT, or do I say, you understand what, I wish to spend a little bit of time placing my coronary heart and soul into IT and doing IT correctly. as a result of yeah

Renata Bernarde: Sure. IT’s attention-grabbing you say that as a result of we noticed that with writing as nicely and commenting on LinkedIn and newsletters that we get, particularly company newsletters, rapidly all of them had a really comparable narrative and so they felt comparable and I’m like, okay, that is AI, written by AI. However now we’ve

Jon Whittle: Yeah. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde: learnt IT and we’re not doing IT anymore. Most of us aren’t doing

Renata Bernarde: IT anymore. So IT’s attention-grabbing that we’re studying, we undergo a steep studying curve and we

Renata Bernarde: on the opposite facet of IT we form of work out overcome these type of points with utilizing AI. That’s attention-grabbing. Jon, thanks a lot for approaching the present. present once more. I believe I would have to get you yearly as a result of issues will begin shifting actually quick. Each week just a little

Jon Whittle: Each week.

Renata Bernarde: just a little a part of the episode will probably be with Jon.

Jon Whittle: Little AI replace, you understand.

Renata Bernarde: No, positively we’ll be referring individuals to your Substack and ensuring that they’re following you on LinkedIn. And naturally, in the event that they wish to rent you, we’ll guarantee that my shoppers who’re getting these AI Jobs and feeling a little bit of imposter syndrome, ensuring that they attain out to you for assist as nicely. Okay.

Jon Whittle: Completely. Thanks for having me.

Renata Bernarde: Thanks, Jon.