Burnout, Wellbeing and Profession Braveness

Renata Bernarde (00:21)
Natalie, IT’s been what? Perhaps three years since we final spoke. And IT’s the second time that you’re a visitor on the Job Looking Podcast. And, however the first time that you just had been alone. The place is Natalie?

Lisa, sorry!

Natalie (00:36)
Sure, properly, we parted methods amicably, center of final 12 months, 2025, to pursue a few of our personal particular person endeavors exterior of our enterprise, really. So IT is a little bit bit bizarre. That is most likely one of many first podcasts alone.

Renata Bernarde (00:49)
do you miss the companionship? I really feel very lonely, I work on my own and I used to be type of jealous of each of you all the time, having such vibe and power between the 2 of you.

Natalie (00:59)
Yeah, I do. And as a lot as we’re each in a very great spot individually, I believe positively having that camaraderie and that commonality in a aim and a ardour, positively lacking that piece.

Renata Bernarde (01:11)
What did you do collectively that you just’re actually happy with?

Natalie (01:14)
we had a lot of girls once we determined to shut attain out to say, , thanks for serving to me say the phrase menopause. Thanks for serving to me look into IT. And a few girls who even mentioned, you simply, saved my life. And we might by no means have imagined that’s the influence that we might have had.

Renata Bernarde (01:30)
Undoubtedly you and Lisa had been one of many pioneers in Australia speaking about menopause, particularly menopause within the office. In order that was so vital. And that’s why I wished you on my podcast as properly. Now that you just’re working for your self, is menopause nonetheless an enormous a part of what you’re going to deal with? How would you clarify what you’re doing in 2026 and past to someone that doesn’t know you?

Natalie (01:54)
Once we closed the enterprise, I moved out of that and are available into my very own profession alone. IT was one thing that I needed to be very acutely aware of that I have to drop that piece. Not a lot drop IT, however once you’re attempting to create a brand new model and attempting to create a brand new space of labor, I needed to make a acutely aware determination that I couldn’t speak a lot about menopause as a result of I’m coming again into three loves, enterprise management and wellbeing.

and wish to deliver, I suppose, a brand new focus space and other people to see me with the ten years of expertise I’ve obtained in enterprise alone, plus different profession endeavors earlier than that. I’ve needed to shift that model a little bit bit. So this 12 months for 2026, IT’s actually about amalgamating these and seeing how enterprise and management should not standalone from well-being.

And after I discuss well-being, I discuss the entire particular person. So bodily, psychological, emotional, religious, and in addition that objective and success as properly. If there’s one factor I noticed throughout my work with girls by way of menopause, IT’s simply that want for that sense of success and objective and satisfaction throughout their 40s and their 50s.

Renata Bernarde (03:10)
Yeah, no, I believe IT’s vital to take that point to mirror, , when you attain a crossroad, which you and Lisa have finished. And IT’s so good. I really like, , to reinvent your self, reinvent myself. And we’re doing that considerably initially of the 12 months as properly. And that’s actually nice. Speaking about type of that cadence of a 12 months lengthy state of affairs, I wish to play a recreation with you, beginning with this query about

what we each assume will occur on the finish of 2026. Like if I do that yearly when it comes to understanding what I would like for my space of experience and I strive to consider headlines that I wish to see, not that I could make IT occur, however what I can foresee as one thing that may occur by the top of 2026 if potential in the perfect case state of affairs.

For me, IT’s greatest case state of affairs. You possibly can go whichever approach you need, however I’ll begin after which I would like you to speak about your work when it comes to a headline for December, 2026 about management and wellbeing. For me in my space of experience when it comes to job searching and profession planning, I might love December, 2026 to be the time when folks notice that distant work and hybrid work are right here to remain.

Natalie (04:04)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (04:26)
And that we stopped, particularly with my shoppers within the US, we stopped this coverage of creating folks come again to work full-time, which lots of my shoppers are going through on either side of the coast, know, East and West. And that’s why they search me out as a result of they don’t wish to work full-time within the workplace and so they must discover a hybrid, perhaps distant choice for them.

However I see this as a knee-jerk response of managers and leaders not realizing easy methods to construct a high-performing group that works hybridly or remotely. And that’s on their plate, not on the worker’s plate to repair. I believe 90 % of the time there is a chance for folks to work remotely and actually be optimum at IT. that’s my…

my want for a headline in December 2026. What can be your want?

Natalie (05:16)
Good query. My focus is basically coming into risk and risk for a person, but in addition risk for organizations. And I believe IT aligns fairly properly to your want as properly in that allow’s broaden our mindset to have a risk mindset. And we don’t must have IT found out. We don’t must have the total path deliberate, however let’s simply…

⁓ nurture the opportunity of whether or not IT’s change, whether or not IT’s taking a look at hybrid work or the opportunity of actually supporting our folks round their Health and wellbeing. Yeah, this 12 months for me is all about risk and serving to folks to simply faucet into that. So I’d love increasingly more people and companies to undertake that risk mindset.

Renata Bernarde (06:02)
I believe particularly for Era X and even among the boomers which might be nonetheless working and good for them, that nostalgia of sticking to the previous can develop into very set of their methods in the best way that they wish to run their companies and lead their groups fairly than, such as you mentioned,

undertake the opportunity of doing issues in another way. And I believe that’s actually vital, particularly as now we have such a various technology, generations working collectively within the office as of late. What would you inform leaders to do now so that they’re not reacting later or overreacting later?

Natalie (06:42)
Yeah, I’m very a lot about coming again to us and coming again to our physique. And I don’t assume we spend sufficient time within the current second and nor will we spend sufficient time really connecting to ourself. So after I take into consideration, , how will we not be reactive, IT’s actually understanding.

how will we react to conditions? So what’s our emotional response to issues when conditions come up? And actually understanding that after which utilizing that as data and as a possibility and might I say risk of harnessing that to help relationships, to help our curiosity round what our folks want or additionally being inquisitive about what we want as properly. So yeah, positively coming again to

the place we at the moment are to the current, and never ahead seeking to the longer term an excessive amount of. simply, yeah, the place am I proper now? What do I would like and what can I do to help myself?

Renata Bernarde (07:40)
Okay. Mine is a type of a model of that, despite the fact that I’m far more future oriented than what you’re suggesting. However what I wrote in my plan for this 12 months, what would you inform leaders to do now so that they don’t overreact or react later is to not overcommit to issues sooner or later. As a result of the work I do is a lot about planning, , like folks join.

Natalie (08:00)
Mm.

Renata Bernarde (08:07)
to work with me as a result of they wish to plan their careers for the subsequent decade or two in order that they’re in management, et cetera. However I really feel like that generally is misinterpreted with an excessive amount of over dedication of issues that they want to enroll in and do. Whereas I’d a lot fairly work tremendous gradual and incrementally. That’s often how I love to do issues. And I really feel like folks might be very overwhelmed in the event that they, yeah.

overcommit themselves, 2026 being a 12 months that they want to take action many issues. No, no, reduce that in half, reduce that by a 3rd after which perhaps deal with that. You’re so into wellbeing and I wish to ask you a few true and false questions for you. I don’t have solutions for these, although I actually wish to be taught from you. True or false? Resilience coaching fixes burnout.

Natalie (08:59)
false, an enormous false. So resilience coaching helps particular person and also you we’re all hardwired for resilience and we will positively develop and prepare that muscle, however IT doesn’t essentially change the surroundings or the system by which we work in. So I believe, yeah, IT’s actually vital that we help ourselves as people, but in addition take a look at how will we now deliver resilience into all the ecosystem and prepare that muscle inside the surroundings we work.

Renata Bernarde (09:01)
Okay, inform me.

Yeah, no, I’ve seen lots of very resilient folks burn out more durable than folks that have much less resiliency of their expertise scores after I do the evaluation for them. So I get IT. One other true or false, if somebody is nice at their job, they may naturally adapt to synthetic intelligence.

Natalie (09:47)
Once more, I’m going to

say false and purpose being is that AI is a instrument, proper? And, however IT’s additionally, I don’t assume IT’s one other tech Technology instrument that we’ve ever used, however what’s not one thing we’ve ever used earlier than, however IT’s very completely different to what we’ve used earlier than. So I believe there’s obtained to be a brand new approach of studying round easy methods to use AI, however easy methods to use AI to reinforce the best way we work and help the best way we work and in addition the best way that we present up as properly.

Renata Bernarde (10:17)
Yeah. You realize, when folks ebook discovery calls with me and I ask them what kind of Jobs they wish to do, generally, not often, however generally IT’s one thing alongside the strains of, I wish to do something that doesn’t contain studying synthetic intelligence or doing this or doing that. I simply wish to do what I’ve been doing. I do know they’re not the shopper for me.

Natalie (10:37)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (10:37)
I believe I will help you. IT’s simply so onerous to search out these nostalgic Jobs. They’re dinosaur roles and so they’re not there anymore. So, yeah, IT’s good to listen to from you about that. One other true or false, I’ve an opinion on this. Profession pivots require an enormous leap.

Natalie (10:55)
I’m gonna say false once more. Gone for the triple Pete with false as a result of I believe that we will create massive change incrementally and small steps and.

Renata Bernarde (10:57)
Yeah.

Sure.

Natalie (11:05)
, if we’re going to be actually intentional and I’m assuming the shoppers you’re employed with, , they’re the type of people that have an intention or they’ve a spotlight in thoughts round how they need their profession future profession to look. And in being intentional, now we have to be methodical and now we have to take small steps and in addition pivot. You realize, I’m a chief instance of that. We’ve obtained to pivot at sure occasions when issues really feel misaligned. So, yeah, small steps create massive change. And I take advantage of a phrase ⁓

all through my yoga really, that a little bit goes a good distance. And we will positively undertake that very same mentality when IT involves profession change as properly.

Renata Bernarde (11:43)
I agree with you. I believe IT’s additionally false. I believe the massive leap is much less concerning the precise profession pivot, however extra inside your head. You realize, IT’s like a mindset change that should occur to let you assume creatively about your profession. IT doesn’t have to be a 180 tomorrow.

however your thoughts must be able to do the incremental change and to really feel susceptible and missing in data. Perhaps for the primary time in a long time, once you’re doing a profession pivot, you need to unlearn issues after which be taught new issues. So I believe the massive leap is extra right here than anyplace else. All proper. So…

Let’s say you might have a shopper that reaches out to you and feels tremendous flat, profitable on paper, however actually unmotivated. What are the questions that you’d attempt to ask that particular person to uncover what’s happening?

Natalie (12:42)
Yeah, so a couple of years in the past, I learnt these three query train from a well-known affiliate professor, Michelle McQuade. I don’t know if her. ⁓ so she was Melbourne based mostly really understanding of Melbourne College. I believe she’s now in Canada, however

Renata Bernarde (12:53)
The place is she from?

Natalie (12:59)
She’s finished rather a lot round constructive psychology and I’ve seen her communicate at a couple of completely different conferences and she or he all the time stored coming again to those three query train. And so first query is what’s going properly for you or what’s working properly? Second query is, is what are you combating? After which the third query is what do you want or what help or what studying do you want? So you may broaden that depending on the context, proper?

And the explanation I really like that, and I do use that in, whether or not IT’s teaching or in workshops, as a result of IT brings you again to, I suppose, very a lot the fundamentals when it comes to the place you might be. So now we have a second of reflecting on what’s going properly. We then have a second of really being actually sincere with ourselves to say, really, what, this isn’t working. After which the third query is the educational alternative for us and the expansion.

Renata Bernarde (13:26)
Yeah.

Natalie (13:51)
⁓ studying aim round what’s IT that I would like and is what I would like some, , simply to achieve out to somebody and have a dialog. Do I have to, , analysis some issues? Do I would like to alter this or do that? And so I all the time begin any session with that three query simply to assist, yeah, deliver folks again to the place they’re. After which then I really feel like when you’ve obtained that final query actually stable,

Renata Bernarde (14:09)
Okay.

Natalie (14:17)
We will then broaden and look and say, okay, the place will we go to from right here? What’s the subsequent step?

Renata Bernarde (14:22)
I believe that that’s nice. I’ve a model of that inside my shopper platform, however IT’s like a complete, like two pages of questions that folks have to reply earlier than they’ve the primary teaching session with me in my program. However yeah, I believe IT’s an important factor in my opinion is writing them down. I believe IT’s really easy or saying IT out loud, .

Natalie (14:29)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (14:46)
by your self or with a coach or with a mentor. However ruminating on this stuff by yourself might be very detrimental for psychological Health, I discover. And I believe that folks maintain lots of these ideas and concepts and reflections inside their heads and so they don’t verbalize them, they don’t journal. And that’s after I assume issues can actually spiral down in the event that they don’t do this. So I believe that’s the good thing about…

both journaling or working with a coach. In order that’s actually nice. one of many issues that I, I imply, we’re completely different, we provide several types of teaching companies, however they’re complimentary and, and, know, someone could wish to do teaching with you for a time period after which teaching with me for a distinct time. And that’s, and that’s wonderful. However we, we most likely overlap when it comes to the varieties of shoppers that we, now we have.

And I’m assuming you even have this type of shopper, which is like someone who could be very skilled, more than likely a frontrunner, senior government, or a supervisor with a lot of obligations, a lot of vital KPIs that they should obtain. So that they’re often very excessive performing, however they’re continuously tense and reactive. I used to be speaking to someone, I believe yesterday, considered one of my shoppers,

And we had been speaking about the truth that for therefore lengthy, she was all the time wired for stress, wired to be reacting to all the things. I don’t assume folks take into consideration IT, however waking up within the morning each single day for over a 12 months, if no more, to know that you just’re going to work in an surroundings the place your boss is

for lack of higher phrase, an asshole. I’m simply speaking about that ebook that I all the time discuss, the asshole rule In order that ebook, and the group is struggling and there’s tons and many restructures occurring, a lot of folks leaving, after which finally she left as properly. So day in, day trip, day in, day trip, they arrive to me as shoppers, so tense, so reactive.

Natalie (16:22)
Thank

Renata Bernarde (16:45)
The place, if that occurs to you, if in case you have a shopper like that, the place do you begin?

Natalie (16:49)
Yeah, and I see IT a lot. And may I say that’s the place I used to be almost 10 years in the past. And that was the catalyst for me in making a profession change as a result of I used to be so burdened and tense and really not even realizing that that’s what I used to be experiencing. And likewise till I studied stress and what IT does to the physique. yeah, that is fairly an space that I’m very all in favour of and love speaking to folks about.

However primarily IT comes again to what I used to be speaking about earlier round that connection to what we’re feeling within the physique and the feelings within the physique, as a result of our physique is all the time speaking to us. And naturally IT’s our nervous system and IT’s our adrenals which might be being impacted once we are deeply burdened that we want that point to really attempt to gradual issues down a little bit bit.

being yoga and meditation instructor, considered one of my key areas is basically serving to folks to deliver the breath again into their day as a result of all of us breathe, however we neglect to breathe or we neglect that we’re respiration. And that is without doubt one of the biggest ways in which we will really begin to simply gradual issues down and once more, deliver ourselves again to the place we’re. I’ve one other query that I ask folks and I usually encourage them to ask themselves this each morning after they get up.

and even journal, write IT down, what am I feeling? As a result of I believe we by no means ask ourselves what’s IT that I’m feeling and that simply in itself opens up the chance to not really feel what we’re feeling in our head however really really feel what we’re feeling deep in our physique and that’s an actual catalyst once more to say someone’s not feeling proper.

Renata Bernarde (18:10)
you

Natalie (18:28)
I’m feeling off, I’m not feeling myself, maybe feeling misaligned, feeling deeply burdened or on the verge of burnout. And yeah, IT’s an amazing query to simply discover. However after all, we wish to ask IT over a little bit of a time period.

Renata Bernarde (18:40)
Yeah.

Natalie (18:43)
significantly if we’re desirous about change, we might ask ourselves as soon as and we might get one reply and the subsequent day we might get one other reply. However that is about attempting to construct that sample and an understanding of, what’s IT that I’m experiencing and why am I experiencing IT? And in connecting to our physique, that helps us then to hook up with the ideas that our feelings are creating.

however then additionally brings us again to, what are the beliefs that I’ve obtained which might be additionally creating these ideas? As a result of we presumably have beliefs round how we needs to be working and the way we needs to be exhibiting up. And if we’re not assembly these expectations, then now we have ideas of self judgment or self loathing. After which that creates emotions within the physique of, know, disgust or disgrace.

Renata Bernarde (19:04)
Yeah.

Natalie (19:25)
So yeah, you most likely see there’s a sample right here in the best way that I work with folks initially is simply, yeah, coming again into the physique and asking, , what am I feeling? And utilizing that once more as Information to help our subsequent step.

Renata Bernarde (19:36)
Natalie, , one factor that I want I knew higher 10 years in the past, 20 years in the past, and I’ve solely lately began to note is are my triggers, , the bodily manifestations of my stress. And I used to be discussing IT with my my specialist. I used to be seeing him on Monday and he had an inventory of triggers. So he was asking me, do you are feeling this? Do you are feeling that? I’m like, sure, sure, sure, sure. After which there was one which he didn’t ask.

and I needed to inform him and IT was like such a weirdo as a result of I’m such a weirdo. IT was a bizarre one. So my set off that I believe is most telling to me is I begin listening to noises that different folks don’t hear. Like once you flick a swap to activate a lightweight, I hear a really sharp noise. When there’s a battery or something charging subsequent to me, I hear the noise of the charging. You’re not supposed to listen to IT, however I do. And that’s after I know I’m flaring up.

That’s after I know I’m not in my consolation zone. I’m in a struggle and flight zone. And that’s the very first thing that reveals up. If I don’t take note of that, then I begin having like blurry visions and a few, know, after I was working within the company world, IT was actually embarrassing as a result of I had an outward going through world and I all the time had a crimson eye. Like IT would have that type of impact on me. Simply the stress of the work would trigger that type of manifestations on my Health. I’ve lots of shoppers which have IBS.

or if they’ve ADHD, the ADHD will simply worsen even below treatment. So realizing your triggers, I believe is so vital, isn’t IT? And IT’s what you mentioned, like we don’t contact base with our emotions after which our physique begins exhibiting that there’s one thing improper after which we don’t take note of that as properly. So fascinating.

Natalie (21:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, our physique’s all the time speaking to us and since we’re so busy and we’re so in our head, , we’re not taking the time to cease and hear and really feel. And, , I believe what you’re highlighting there together with your expertise is the senses. We get a way of overload and IT’s your specific sense of listening to that clearly heightens at a second of stress. I really feel IT deep in my stomach. I get that feeling of, , butterflies or one thing in my stomach. And right away I do know that

Renata Bernarde (21:22)
Yeah.

Natalie (21:45)
Okay, I’m in a state of affairs that’s going to elicit the struggle or flight. I would like to simply breathe and cease and take a step again and select my response. And I believe if there’s one factor I can say about stress, we will’t all the time get rid of stress. We will’t all the time decrease IT and there’s stress throughout us, however we will really select how we reply to stress and coming again into our physique is a very smart way to try this.

Renata Bernarde (21:46)
Mm.

Do you run breathwork workshops?

Natalie (22:13)
⁓ I used to be doing lots of yoga meditation previously by way of the enterprise, however as a result of I’m on this type of section of pivot and a little bit of transition, I’m not but. I’m going to say but on the finish. Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (22:17)
Yeah.

Okay,

okay. As a result of I’ve finished one with Josh Pitterman right here in Melbourne. I’ll put a hyperlink under as a result of he’s working fairly a couple of this 12 months. And I believe I have to do extra. I did my first one. IT was like a complete day. And I IT’s rather a lot, isn’t IT? Like, I’ve you finished one like I didn’t count on IT to be so emotional and so vital. And I used to be generally type of.

type of feeling very self-aware and probably not participating with the train as a lot as I wished to. So I wish to do one other one. I believe he’s working one other one earlier than I am going away to Europe. So I’ll strive to try this. ⁓ I promised him that I might take his mom with me who has been a visitor on this podcast. So I’ll hyperlink her as properly within the episode present notes. So Hannah Pitterman she’s an incredible coach and marketing consultant. So I believe breath work is

is wonderful and we’re solely type of tip of the iceberg of what we will do with with our breaths. So, so all in favour of and Josh is so educated, having been nonetheless is, , an incredible singer. In fact, he has that background of, , realizing easy methods to breathe. I don’t know easy methods to breathe. Folks make enjoyable of me as a result of generally I do neglect to breathe and I’ll cough like at work. I bear in mind folks

noticing that I used to be both sighing or coughing as a result of I hadn’t type of breathed for a minute or two. I’m simply too fearful or burdened about an e mail or a dialog or one thing and I might simply cease respiration, which is ridiculous. So I really want to work on that. One other enjoyable factor for us to do, two issues that you’ll cease doing in 2026.

Natalie (24:03)
Ah, good query. Undoubtedly pushing. pushing when it comes to over striving, may I say. So given the work I used to be doing round menopause, I can mirror and say that I used to be actually striving to create the And, , I suppose a purpose why we stopped the enterprise is as a result of we noticed that

there’s nonetheless a very lengthy strategy to go. And we type of obtained to the purpose that we mentioned, we will’t look ahead to our personal sanity. We will’t look ahead to workplaces to be prepared. And so I can see over that six years, there was lots of pushing, lots of striving to get folks on board, however realizing that issues take time and divine timing, issues will occur as they should occur. So massive a part of me is yeah, not,

pushing or not over striving may I say? Nonetheless taking motion, however not attempting to drive outcomes. I believe that’s most likely extra to the purpose. After which what’s going to I maintain? was the query? Preserve doing? Yeah. I’m not. Yeah. Begin doing.

Renata Bernarde (24:57)
Preserve doing, yeah. Or begin doing, perhaps begin doing in case you haven’t began but.

Natalie (25:04)
Yeah, I believe I’m going to indicate up a little bit bit in another way to how I’ve once more previously as a result of I’m solo alone and I’ve obtained a brand new message, type of a, I suppose a brand new focus or refined focus and simply, yeah, exhibiting up in another way.

Renata Bernarde (25:22)
For me, I made a decision to do the podcast as soon as a fortnight as an alternative of as soon as per week. And that has been such a tough determination for me as a result of I used to be simply so set in my methods and I really like routine and I don’t like to alter routines. Even when they’re not working, I simply keep on with them so strongly. However I believe IT’s for the perfect. So final week was the primary week the place I didn’t launch an episode.

And I believe my largest worry is that IT will influence my enterprise getting shoppers as a result of most of my shoppers come from listening to the podcast. However IT was wonderful. Like I obtained two new shoppers final week. I imply, IT’s the start of the 12 months. So IT’s often the time that folks do join teaching, particularly job searching in the event that they’re searching for work. So, however IT was simply such , know, lastly I can do that and I can have a bit extra time for different issues.

Two issues that I’ll begin doing is, gosh, I’ll put a hyperlink under to what I did a few weeks in the past, which was mainly simply exhibiting up extra courageously to folks, like being extra overt about the truth that I’m a coach and I would like shoppers and please join and work with me. IT’s completely different from listening to the podcast. I believe I spent the previous six years doing this as a beginner, whereas like, no, I’m really

good at this shit. Like my shoppers all have Jobs, they’re joyful, none of them are complaining fairly the opposite approach round. Phrase of mouth is nice and IT’s time, , so I would like to start out type of elevating my, the best way that I present up. Trigger I present up rather a lot, Natalie, that, like I’m all the time on.

If something, I’m doing much less of that this 12 months, however I’m exhibiting up a bit extra strongly, I believe. I hope IT doesn’t rub folks off the improper approach. IT doesn’t seem to be IT did as a result of I wrote an enormous manifesto, like a Jerry Maguire of weeks in the past, LinkedIn. And IT went all proper. So yeah, in order that’s IT. Are you doing something in another way in the best way that you just’re working?

Natalie (27:20)
I’m positively, , like when IT involves social media and as a enterprise proprietor, that you just’ve obtained to search out your channel on on the place you might be and have dabbled in them all around the final six years, however been very intentional round LinkedIn and intentional on Substack as properly. And I actually really feel I’ve obtained a message and a narrative and I suppose a thought upsetting

Renata Bernarde (27:39)
okay.

Natalie (27:46)
approach to assist folks actually nurture that risk mindset. So I’ve been very intentional on these two platforms and writing extra. So doing a little bit bit extra writing. And I’ve had a podcast and I actually do miss the podcasting. And so for me, once more, not speeding or attempting to drive IT, however really feel like there’s one thing which may include that finally as properly.

Undoubtedly very intentional. I’ve positively come into 2026 very intentional and a little bit bit such as you, , over time I felt like a beginner and on reflection in the direction of the top of final 12 months.

I simply bear in mind considering, no, I’m good at this and I’ll go and facilitate a workshop or a program or I’ll coach. I imply, I do know what I’m doing and I do know I will help folks. And so I’m actually nurturing that mindset of simply, yeah, go on the market and unapologetically and however deliberately.

Renata Bernarde (28:40)
With the workshops that you’ve got run in organizations round Australia, IT has given you such nice perception, , as that exterior perspective trying in. What have you ever noticed about office tradition that in case you might change IT, like wave a wand and alter IT, that you’d?

Natalie (28:59)
sure, I really feel like I’ve been waving a wand for the previous 10 years round wellbeing and IT’s nonetheless not altering. I do assume wellbeing continues to be seen as very a lot a pleasant to have and a tick the field train. And , I began my very own enterprise, my daughter was just one. And I bear in mind I set my intention again then that by the point she’s working full time, wellbeing won’t be a pleasant to have, IT’ll simply be a part of the tradition and she or he’ll be seen for who she is and the place she is and

Renata Bernarde (29:06)
Yeah.

Natalie (29:28)
she’ll be supported to be the healthiest greatest and she or he’s 11 now. And so we’re nonetheless not there. We’re doing issues, however we’re not doing issues that actually change within the tradition. IT’s very floor stage. And so I really like facilitating a workshop, however except I’m in there really creating actual cultural change, IT’s not gonna have the influence that we would like IT to have.

and individuals are not going to take the educational or the behaviour change that I share and put IT into motion. They’ll’t as a result of yeah, and if I take into consideration the menopause piece, and I usually mentioned that we’ve by no means had the vocabulary across the phrase menopause.

And we have to construct the literacy across the what and the why and the help that we want. And never only for girls, however for males and actually understanding all of us undergo life phases and adjustments. And we have to do the identical with well-being. We have to construct that literacy and actually not see IT as a buzzword, however see IT as one thing that’s deep within the core of who we’re and the way we present up and the way we work.

Renata Bernarde (30:10)
Yeah.

Yeah. Speaking about that, and also you talked about your daughter as properly, and I’m considering right here, is IT time for us to revamp the workday of, particularly the kind of shoppers we see, know, data employees? What would you do in case you might with the best way that we work, the 9 to 5 type of expectations that folks have?

IT simply appears so improper now, particularly for those who are working hybrid or distant.

Natalie (31:02)
Hmm, yeah, IT feels so archaic, doesn’t IT? And even, , coming off college holidays and chatting with so many pals, IT’s the identical factor. IT’s like, how is the work 12 months so misaligned to the varsity 12 months and the way we anticipated to work? You realize, my daughter was sick day considered one of this 12 months and I had to enter the town and do a face-to-face, however she was sick and so I really couldn’t go in. So I needed to change IT to all on-line, which was wonderful, however.

Yeah, IT’s actually irritating. once more, I believe training actually has to play an enormous piece. I don’t assume we’re actually curious or open minded to

what change, know, altering the how the hours of the day, what that would really do for productiveness and what IT might do for efficiency and the way lengthy folks may keep within the office for as properly. You realize, I communicate to some leaders who’re fearful about doing sure issues, completely different initiatives, as a result of they don’t need their folks to go away. And I all the time say, , if individuals are finally going to go away sooner or later, proper?

And if they will look again and say, I had an incredible expertise at this group, they then develop into an advocate for that group for future workers, why not? Let’s give them the perfect expertise while they’re there. So I digress a little bit bit, however I believe, yeah, we have to actually have training. We actually have to have a curious thoughts. And we additionally want to simply

be folks and be people and perceive every of the circumstances that everybody’s obtained. And the way can we be adaptive to that? I take a look at among the massive organizations I noticed.

can’t bear in mind his position, however somebody from Medibank who’s been a catalyst across the 4 day working week that they’ve obtained there. And, , he spoke so extremely across the improve in productiveness and the morale. So we’re seeing organisations doing IT right here in Australia and so they’re having actually nice final result in ensuring adjustments.

Renata Bernarde (32:55)
once you’re working one-on-one with shoppers, generally there are two organizations, identical trade, identical nation, utterly completely different cultures. IT’s so fascinating to see. I generally have shoppers in the identical group, however with completely different managers and utterly completely different work experiences. However one of many issues that I’ve

Natalie (33:14)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (33:16)
been observing is this concept that some organizations have constructed their coaching or skilled growth program in a approach that by accident or not on objective, enhances the burnout potential due to the best way that the coaching is designed. With all the perfect intentions, IT’s both a matter of an excessive amount of coaching

or the facilitators that come are too wanting to current and simply makes all people a bit type of anxious about what they should do with a view to be nice excessive performing members of the group. And so they come to me for teaching later feeling fairly deflated by the truth that they couldn’t sustain with the expectations of the coaching that they’ve obtained.

Have you ever noticed that as properly or is that too area of interest?

Natalie (34:08)
No, I believe IT is an issue as a result of once more, I believe we’re very a lot of a mindset round extra, extra, extra. ⁓ And as a coach and assessor, and I’ve labored at a couple of universities in addition to doing workshops in workplaces, there’s a specific construction that you just wish to take when you’re educating. So that you wish to have a little bit of content material, however you then wish to open up for some interactive engagement or interactive actions. IT doesn’t must be a full block of

Renata Bernarde (34:15)
Yeah.

Natalie (34:36)
of educating, what I imply? Or expectation that we have to simply maintain giving folks increasingly more, extra, extra, extra Information. You realize, there’s little nuggets that we can provide folks that they will then take an motion. And I believe that’s the actually massive piece and doubtless considered one of my frustrations when IT involves Health and wellbeing within the office that IT’s simply all the time about Information and data. Sure, we want that, however we have to create the area for folks to motion IT.

on their phrases as they will. We’re not cookie cutters, we’re not clones of one another and various things make us tick, our brains work in another way, all the things operates in another way, proper? And so we have to create that area for folks to really enact and put a few of that into motion.

Renata Bernarde (35:19)
Do you assume there’s a excessive performing behavior that has been type of popularized in tradition and company tradition that’s damaging?

Natalie (35:28)
Mm, 100%. Yeah, extra,

Renata Bernarde (35:31)
Give me an instance, which one would you retire in case you might?

Natalie (35:37)
Simply this notion of, , now we have fixed conferences, don’t we? Like we, and from every assembly there comes a sequence of various actions that we’re then anticipated to do. However by the point you might have back-to-back conferences, your work days ended. And so when do you do these actions? So I believe, , we’ve actually obtained to create white area. You realize, I discuss white area in our life.

Renata Bernarde (35:54)
Yeah.

⁓ I really like that.

Natalie (36:02)
however in our work day, we have to create white area. So we have to have occasions of reflection, occasions of simply on our personal doing our work, but in addition have these occasions of actual.

excessive depth motion too. I run marathons and I take lots of my studying from all of the marathons that I’ve run that I set a future aim, however I come again to the very starting and I prepare my physique. However in coaching my physique, I’m not simply coaching IT bodily.

I’m skilled at mentally as properly. So I do lots of yoga and mindset work to coach IT mentally. However then I’m additionally centered on my sleep and I’m centered on my diet and I’m centered on the remaining, proper? Extra so than something, that white area. , we have to nearly undertake that mentality of coaching like an athlete.

Renata Bernarde (36:50)
I really like that. Love that. You’re so proper. And I believe one of many hardest issues I’ve to do with new shoppers, I had one this morning and she or he emailed me after the session asking for a few issues and I must return and clarify to her is this concept of shifting into motion too rapidly, , and that’s one thing that’s

We’re educated to try this, to realize rapidly as we begin a brand new job, as we begin job searching and so forth. Whereas I’m an enormous believer in pre-work. So earlier than going to market, IT’s not procrastination, IT’s simply preparation actually. And in case you’re hiring a coach, you may as properly profit from the data that in my case I’ve about easy methods to greatest search for work.

to setting her expectations in order that she is aware of that we are going to finally get there. However proper now is just not the precise time. We nonetheless have to do some bit extra of the preparation self evaluation. And I would like to grasp her a little bit bit higher earlier than we go into, I imply, if I used to be a brand new coach or an insecure coach, I might wish to please her and say, oh yeah, let’s, , that’s what she needs. She wants IT now. Let’s do IT.

However I’m at a stage now the place I do know that we are going to do a a lot better job for her if we take a step again earlier than we exit to market in a short time. that’s, yeah.

Natalie (38:08)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. May I share

a private story? So again in 2016, and this was me in my profession in manufacturing and gross sales, and IT was about this time that 12 months, so yeah, 10 years in the past, and I mentioned to myself, by the top of that 12 months, I believe IT was gonna be 34 on the finish of that 12 months.

Renata Bernarde (38:13)
Yeah.

Natalie (38:27)
I mentioned, I’m going to be in a brand new profession. Now, I didn’t know what IT appeared like or what IT meant, however I simply knew that that was going to be my focus for the 12 months. And I gave myself that full 12 months. initially, I got here up with a aspect hustle, only a small enterprise that I got here up with. And I didn’t stop my job right away. I used to be in that profession nonetheless. However having that little aspect hustle is what helped me have that sense of objective whereas doing the profession and the work I wanted to do to have an earnings, et cetera.

However I gave myself that full 12 months to simply discover and be curious and take a look at issues, experiment with issues. And finally, , I obtained there. However and IT really didn’t even occur on the finish of that 12 months. IT occurred two years later. However I used to be wonderful. However I’d set that intention that that is that is my focus for the 12 months. I’m not going to show all the things the other way up. I’m simply going to be, yeah, join again to myself. I used to be very burdened. Values my why, , all these types of issues.

Renata Bernarde (39:21)
Superior. I really like that. That’s such a coincidence as a result of 10 years in the past was additionally after I began teaching as a aspect hustle. Yeah. Yeah. In order that’s attention-grabbing. Okay. What do you assume for data employees is extra vital this 12 months? Confidence, braveness, or readability? I do know you wish to say all of them, however select one. ⁓

Natalie (39:44)
There’s

positively one which resonates most and that’s braveness. And I believe primarily as a result of in a world of AI, and I do know there’s lots of people who don’t like AI, now we have to search out methods to harness AI and be brave in exhibiting up utilizing AI. So significantly as a enterprise proprietor, we’re on the market advertising and marketing ourselves, however even folks searching for work too.

Yeah, we will use AI to help what we have to do behind the scenes, however AI doesn’t substitute the particular person, doesn’t substitute the human, the character, the feelings that we really feel. And so IT goes to take braveness to indicate up with all of that in a really AI pushed world. So I’m going to say braveness.

Renata Bernarde (40:27)
I all the time say braveness. I’m such an enormous fan of braveness. I discuss braveness all of the bloody time as a result of job searching is basically, , IT makes you tremendous insecure and missing in confidence. When folks come to me and so they say, I would like you to assist me with my confidence. And I’m like, I’m unsure that I can do this, however I will help you be brave. Proper. So braveness is one thing that I will help you with. After which over time you’ll develop into extra assured about.

Natalie (40:28)
there.

Renata Bernarde (40:55)
job search and profession growth. However readability, pricey, I’ve given up.

Natalie (41:01)
IT builds over time, proper? Doesn’t IT? Like IT’s been brave to take that first step that builds confidence, that’s confidence in motion. After which readability begins to kind. However then what? Then you might have a pivot after which you might have one other change and you then obtained to be brave once more. IT’s like this cycle.

Renata Bernarde (41:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And AI is simply in all places and IT’s in job search, know, on each ends, , for the job seeker utilizing IT and in addition the recruiter and the way they undergo lots of of functions. IT’s machine studying, bots, AI and all of that.

IT’s additionally taking increasingly more of the work away from us. don’t know. Has IT taken among the work away from you? Are you utilizing AI? And what do you do with the time that you’ve got now that AI is doing a little duties for you?

Natalie (41:43)
Yeah, I

Yeah, so I believe AI has positively helped with a little bit of effectivity, but in addition extra so simply getting very clear on messaging as properly and serving to me to solidify my thought management, the conversations that I wish to have. But in addition, I don’t really feel like IT’s freed up an excessive amount of time within the sense of I’m nonetheless very acutely aware about being a human and nonetheless exhibiting up as who I’m.

so IT’s helped with efficiencies However yeah, for me as an individual, I maintain coming again to, yeah, I’ve obtained to maintain exhibiting up as me.

Renata Bernarde (42:21)
Yeah, I believe I used to be studying yesterday, I believe IT’s referred to as a scan report, one thing that promoting companies do to type of give folks a clue on what to focus within the 12 months and the 12 months forward. And so they had been speaking about going again to analog. They had been speaking about going again to like, , like that is an company, not simply one thing that individuals are all in favour of profession However I believe.

A number of the issues which have occurred for the previous couple of months, , when it comes to popular culture and what’s, , trending proper now made them assume, okay, now that we’ve had sufficient of AI or, or web or hybrid or distant, , we wish to see folks nose to nose. You wish to have actual connections. And I believed, that is attention-grabbing as a result of I’ve been desirous about having conferences. You realize, I often do shoppers nearly, I’m.

Natalie (42:57)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (43:13)
Even with the podcast listeners, I’ve been desirous about working some occasions the place folks can simply get collectively and meet me and have conversations since I’m going to be abroad as properly. I can do IT in numerous components of the world, which will probably be good. I don’t know when this episode goes out, all people, however look within the episode present notes if I’m working occasions, you possibly can come and attend them.

Natalie (43:19)
Yeah

Bye.

Renata Bernarde (43:34)
As a result of I believe that that human connection is arising with one thing actually vital. Final query for you, Natalie, if now we have to deal with one or two capabilities to work on for 2026 and past, what would IT be? What do you assume from working together with your shoppers and with workplaces?

that people have to work extra as a muscle to develop and be extra succesful in doing.

Natalie (44:00)
I’m going to say, they most likely, , all the time inverted commas, the gentle capabilities, however once more, , there’s a theme to what I’m keen about.

I believe emotional intelligence is without doubt one of the biggest superpowers that we’re simply not nurturing. And that then turns into self-awareness. So understanding self-awareness, motivation, empathy as properly. And if I take into consideration what you shared there from that company round love and never love doesn’t even must be in a romance context, however simply exhibiting love and spreading love and having kindness, emotional intelligence is one thing that actually helps help construct deep

relationships. And once more, I simply don’t assume we will get away from that. And I don’t wish to. And I don’t assume we needs to be excited to be behind a robotic. So I believe emotional intelligence. After which after all, once more, I believe one other nice one is mindfulness. And IT comes again to creating these white areas, alternative to be current.

to deal with the place we’re, who we’re, who we’re turning into. I noticed an amazing publish on LinkedIn about, at 18, we’re anticipated to work out what our profession is for the subsequent 40 years with the notion that we received’t ever change or evolve. After which once we do, everybody’s like, you’re doing one thing completely different or what’s improper with you, however you do that and now you’re doing this. So once more, we’ve obtained to be very aware of our progress.

and our evolution and never simply in our biology, however the evolution in our thoughts and our success and what IT is that we would like. I believe yeah, emotional intelligence and mindfulness are some actual human capabilities that we will maintain nurturing.

Renata Bernarde (45:44)
love that. Natalie, IT has been great to speak to you once more. had such a good time the primary time we had a dialog along with Lisa and I’ll put the hyperlink under to that one. However IT’s good to have a chat with a fellow coach and have a dialog about subjects which might be pricey to me and pricey to you. You’re great. I’ll put a hyperlink under for those who wish to attain out to you and work with you and rent you. And I hope that you just come again, , 12 months or two to have one other dialog.

Natalie (46:12)
⁓ I might love that. Thanks a lot, Renata. IT’s all the time a pleasure chatting with you. Thanks, bye.