Government Presence in Job Interviews: Voice, Confidence, First Impressions

Renata Bernarde (00:21)
this episode immediately is about government presence, which by the best way, is essentially the most searchable factor on my podcast.

Folks love government presence each time I speak about IT or do an episode about IT. IT does actually, rather well. So I’m actually enthusiastic about having two specialists with me this time, as a result of IT’s normally simply me speaking about IT myself. So immediately I’m joined by Dr. Alexa Chilkut. Did I pronounce IT accurately? Okay. And Dr. Carl DuPont. Did I say that accurately? Oui, that’s very French.

Alexa Chilcutt (00:50)
You probably did? ⁓

Carl DuPont (00:55)
Oui, c’est parti.

Alexa Chilcutt (00:56)
you

Renata Bernarde (00:58)
So Alexa and Carl, thanks for becoming a member of me and my listeners immediately. need, earlier than I cross the ball to you, I need to speak a little bit bit about you and why you’re right here. I like that you just’ve reached out as a result of that interdisciplinary method that each of you will have on government presence, however management improvement and voice and tone and mixing the science with the efficiency.

that we have to have once we are executives is like so distinctive and so refreshing to see. You will have authored this ebook, The Presence Precept: Embodying Government Presence to Lead with Impression. And I’ll put a hyperlink under so individuals can go and buy this ebook. And also you each work with leaders and organizations and also you train and that.

analysis backed abilities that interprets into actual world impression for my listeners is what we’re on the lookout for. I would like folks that have, , the DNA to really speak about this with experience and confidence. Alexa, you might be an government coach and you’re employed at Johns Hopkins is in your college lead for the Carey Enterprise College’s Government Training.

Enterprise Communication Certificates. So if anyone is concerned with skilled improvement, go take a look at that program as a result of IT sounds nice. And Carl, you’re employed on this attention-grabbing intersection. I need to hear extra about IT of voice, embodiment and management presence. I like that. And also you’re an affiliate professor of voice at Johns Hopkins College.

Peabody Institute, I had by no means heard of that title earlier than. I’m kind of fascinated by IT. And the chief training college at Johns Hopkins Carey Enterprise College, you train there as nicely. Did I say all the things proper? As a result of there was a lot within the bios. I’m simply choosing up the issues that I believe are extra related.

Carl DuPont (02:58)
Sure.

All.

Alexa Chilcutt (03:05)
Certain.

Carl DuPont (03:05)
So

one of many issues that could be very attention-grabbing is that the founding father of our college, his first identify was Johns. So IT’s Johns Hopkins. Johns. Sure, you had been so shut. IT was simply that one tiny element, however that’s what Alexa and I do. We concentrate on these small issues in order that we are able to make them higher.

Renata Bernarde (03:15)
Johns’s Hopkins. Sure, and I overlook to say the S. Sure.

you

Yeah, the element.

my goodness. Thanks for that.

Alexa Chilcutt (03:31)
Sure, and we each

so Carl and I very a lot have form of totally different backgrounds clearly, however we got here collectively as a result of we began educating ⁓ for a Fortune 200 firm in an progressive management program the place they had been actually form of serving to to equip their mid-level leaders to have the ability to rise to extra senior degree positions and so they requested us to show

⁓ Form of a day on government presence. This was years in the past. And so Carl and I had been like Let’s determine that out and since then IT was actually IT resonated with individuals and IT was ⁓ One thing that was actually highly effective that we had been stunned by once we taught them and so since then we developed a three-day course at Johns Hopkins and had been educating that a number of occasions a 12 months and firms after which that’s form of the place we had been like

On the finish of the category, individuals at all times need to know what’s subsequent, what assets can I’ve, and that’s actually what sort of happened with our ebook. We created that so that folks would have that steady useful resource for themselves.

Renata Bernarde (04:43)
I like that. assume, , this dialog is essential for my listeners, however IT’s additionally essential for me. ⁓ I’m a really pragmatic coach. I work with individuals which can be between Jobs and wish a greater job. And I work with folks that need to take extra management of their careers. And we at all times find yourself speaking about government presence day-after-day.

Alexa Chilcutt (05:02)
Mm.

Renata Bernarde (05:03)
session that I’ve with my purchasers, each personal teaching shopper, group shopper, we’re speaking about government presence and the way that interprets for them. And my greatest problem is to persuade them that there’s not a single mildew. Proper. So I need to speak to you about this government presence ⁓ definition that exists in rooms which can be biased in cultures that

weren’t constructed for perhaps the kind of chief that you’re. Possibly you’re a blue collar chief, perhaps you come from a distinct nation, perhaps you will have an accent, perhaps all of these issues which may intervene together with your assumption of government presence and different individuals’s assumptions of ⁓ government presence and their expectations.

What ought to be tailored, if something, and what ought to stay distinctive?

Carl DuPont (06:05)
One of many attention-grabbing issues from the communication research science is that one can not not talk. At any time once we are in proximity to a different individual, we’re speaking. So which means even earlier than you communicate, your actions are being interpreted. And that may be your physique language, that may be the tone of voice extra so than the phrases.

Alexa Chilcutt (06:05)
Carl, yeah.

Carl DuPont (06:33)
We perceive that solely 13 % of what’s understood is from what you say. So there’s this wealthy vary of communication that’s occurring. When IT involves getting into into these conditions the place you may encounter a distinct tradition, should you haven’t taken inventory and executed the stock of who you might be, what your values are, and why you’re within the room, and as an alternative you’re specializing in these issues that carry you anxiousness,

that’s going to learn as nicely. And so Alexa and I designed this ebook to provide the reader a number of alternatives to do the deep dive in order that precisely what you carry to the desk. And so you possibly can put that on the entrance of the dialog and you’ll proceed to information the dialog to what’s essential to you. And I believe that cuts throughout cultural variations.

Renata Bernarde (07:32)
Hmm Alexa do you will have something so as to add? ⁓

Alexa Chilcutt (07:36)
You you mentioned one thing a second in the past the place IT was, , both different individuals have a notion of government presence otherwise you understand that they’ve a distinct notion. And Carl and I each coach as nicely. And IT’s so attention-grabbing to work with individuals as a result of so many occasions they’re doing psychological gymnastics about assumptions about

ways in which individuals are perceiving them that might not be the case. And in order Carl mentioned, actually form of doing the work to consider, okay, what are my strengths? What are my values? What am I bringing to the desk? Feeling good about that, assured, understanding who you might be. , that comes by means of. I believe that shines by means of in any tradition. And numerous occasions individuals do…

Understand roadblocks which may not be there and that don’t enable them to shine the best way that they’ll shine

Renata Bernarde (08:40)
And I believe that that’s the wonderful thing about working with a coach, as a result of individuals listening immediately, they could kind of perceive intellectually all the things that we’re saying right here, however then making use of IT is so arduous. Proper. IT’s that concept of the rider and the elephant, the place, know, know the place you might want to go. IT’s simply so arduous to information you there. And, , I’m assuming each of you will have nice

duties and work and homework and issues that you would be able to train your purchasers. I do kind of have my very own methods as nicely however I like love studying from you.

What do you say? And that is one thing that I believe got here out late final 12 months. Right me if I’m flawed. However a really influential individual in kind of my clientele and like my purchasers love Brene Brown. I’m assuming your purchasers love Brene Brown, proper? I like Brene Brown.

Carl DuPont (09:37)
All of us look fairly tough. Yeah.

Alexa Chilcutt (09:37)
Everyone does, after all.

In fact.

Renata Bernarde (09:40)
after all, I like her. Having mentioned that, she mentioned one thing fairly controversial to me, not less than, about ⁓ government presence. Would you prefer to elaborate on what she mentioned and what you concentrate on IT?

Alexa Chilcutt (09:54)
Effectively, and Carl, you may piggyback. ⁓ One of many issues that, and she or he was speaking to Adam Grant on the time, and they also had been having this sort of dialog, after which IT became government presence by some means, and so they each form of talked about how IT’s an outdated idea, and that IT’s a really masculine idea, and that we don’t want government presence anymore, and I believe that

So all of us have this outdated concept of government presence. And to me, IT form of appears to be like like that collection, do not forget that TV collection, Mad Males? That’s form of the outdated concept of government presence, however that’s not immediately’s government presence. so IT…

IT bothered me as a result of I used to be like, nicely, you’re not likely doing individuals a service by making them really feel like that’s not one thing that’s achievable or that may be genuine to who they’re. And by the best way, analysis reveals that government presence is totally the notion of somebody’s government presence straight contributes to their profession development.

And the perceived lack of government presence holds individuals again. And I can cite the statistics, I can do all of the issues, however we all know that. So yeah, there’s a little bit little bit of battle there.

Renata Bernarde (11:25)
Okay, what about you Carl?

Carl DuPont (11:26)
And

nicely, I’ll return to a factor you talked about only a second in the past about teaching. And I’m watching the Winter Olympics proper now. And I’m watching the best athletes on the earth have a coach proper there, cheering them on and or consoling them after they fall. And I believe that’s so inspirational to assume that these are athletes that prepare day-after-day.

within the roughest circumstances and so they want anyone there to guarantee that they do their greatest. And I believe IT’s the identical for us on this enterprise.

Renata Bernarde (12:04)
Mm.

Carl DuPont (12:05)
One of many issues that I seen after I was watching this clip of Brene Brown and Adam Grant communicate was that she mentioned the science is unclear. And I believe that there’s…

such a variety of science to make the most of for government presence. And that’s what you’ll discover within the ebook that Alexa and I wrote. Each single chapter begins with a statistic from analysis. IT’s very quantifiable how impressions are made. IT’s quantifiable how voices are perceived. And IT’s quantifiable how physique language and even apparel can contribute

or change perceptions as you go into the room. And so I believe with Alexa and myself defining government presence by means of the psychological assets and analysis and enterprise researches, analysis, we’re discovering a technique to take our interdisciplinary abilities and make them coalesce to assist individuals put collectively the…

the various totally different items that IT takes to dwell a profitable company life.

Renata Bernarde (13:23)
Yeah, I like what you mentioned.

I imply, my Information for now’s anecdotal. I’ve been making an attempt so arduous to publish with my colleagues at Monash College the place I train, however they’re too busy with different huge initiatives and I’m too small for them. However I’ve like this good pattern, which I imply, if you wish to use IT, I’d like to share with you. My purchasers are all around the world and so they all have related issues as a result of they’re all related age and stage of their careers. They’re all 40 and above. I’m very, very sure that the listenership for the podcast is the

Alexa Chilcutt (13:47)
Okay.

right here.

Renata Bernarde (13:57)
identical

as a result of that’s what pipelines my purchasers, proper? So I get purchasers from the podcast. And government presence has reworked in several ways in which I believe perhaps Brene Brown wasn’t capable of clarify or perhaps, , IT’s not a part of her repertoire of issues that she has targeted her consideration on as a result of frankly, she hasn’t been on the lookout for work for fairly a while, proper? Or Adam Grant.

Carl DuPont (14:21)
or out of breath. He hasn’t regarded both.

Alexa Chilcutt (14:25)
Thank

Renata Bernarde (14:26)
That’s proper.

However look, I believe that ⁓ you probably have been in a room with different individuals and and even nearly in a Zoom or a Groups job interview, that there’s a sure expectation about the way you current for the job that you really want. And IT has to do, such as you mentioned, together with your tone and your apparel and your degree of braveness and luxury in answering questions. However frankly, this morning earlier than catching up with you, I instructed one in all my purchasers,

your clean wall is not going to enable you get that mental job in ESG consulting that you really want. Your homework is to go to IKEA, purchase two bookcases and fill them with all your books, as a result of I do know you will have these books. The place are they? what I imply? When this factor in regards to the bookcases began and I began sharing movies about this,

Carl DuPont (15:09)
If

Alexa Chilcutt (15:11)
Sure.

Carl DuPont (15:15)
and we all know you may learn, so show IT.

Renata Bernarde (15:25)
my mother FaceTimed me and she or he had like her Kindle behind her and she or he’s like, that is my Kindle, IT has a number of books. And I mentioned, mother, that received’t work, that received’t work. And I believe that these kind of cues, , from the best way you employ Technology, the best way that you just, , have your room arrange in your hybrid dwelling workplace, the best way that you just stroll right into a dialog and really feel that IT’s peer to look.

Alexa Chilcutt (15:33)
That’s humorous. ⁓

Renata Bernarde (15:52)
IT’s not servant to chief, proper? All of that, that intentionality of the way you current your self is so essential.

Carl DuPont (15:55)
Yeah.

I believe one of many issues that’s lovely about being on this facet of 40 after which 50 and 60 is that you just’ve in all probability at this level, in some unspecified time in the future at time, been on the opposite facet of the desk.

Alexa Chilcutt (16:00)
Mm-hmm.

Carl DuPont (16:14)
you’ve been the one interviewing somebody, you’ve been the one hiring somebody. And so simply utilizing that little little bit of expertise, when you’re on the opposite facet of the desk, you notice, my God, I used to be fascinated about all of the flawed issues. After I was on there doing the interview, and for me as a singer, after I was on the market auditioning, I used to be like, okay, I gotta go in, I gotta impress them, I gotta sing greater, quicker, louder, I gotta be showier.

And proper now we’re doing auditions at Peabody for the following cohort. And we simply need you to speak out of your coronary heart. You possibly can’t actually impress the jury or the judges. They’ve seen all the things. They’ve been all over the place. They know IT all. And identical factor whenever you’re going into these firms. They know the job. They know the outline. You possibly can’t actually impress them in that sense. However if you’re

And I’ll use Brene Brown, like daring to be weak and present what’s essential to you, displaying what your virtues are, displaying what your values are, after which having the ability to show IT with concrete experiences or examples of the way you’ve made that, the way you’ve operationalized that in your profession. Effectively, that leaves an impression. That leaves a mark. And that additionally permits for the massive factor, which is connection.

Alexa Chilcutt (17:31)
Good.

Carl DuPont (17:36)
And that’s arduous to get these days, particularly with AI. So IT actually opens up a channel for that human half.

Renata Bernarde (17:45)
Superior, thanks. I’ve a query for you that I believe is a extremely essential one which, once more, lots of my purchasers face, and that’s displaying government presence however being afraid of ageism. So you will have, let’s say, a 55-year-old job candidate being interviewed by a 30-something-year-old.

HR skilled recruiter and even the hiring supervisor. That individual will likely be your supervisor and they’re 20 years youthful than you. And that actually is one thing that has made individuals retire early. I’ve individuals in my household that simply couldn’t cope. So what would you advise anyone going by means of that state of affairs to do?

Alexa Chilcutt (18:14)
Okay.

and

, I identical factor as as you. I imply the folks that I coach are.

40s, 50s, proper? And so they’re all form of in that subsequent degree, form of subsequent alternative factor. ⁓ I believe one of many greatest challenges is that you really want to speak your agility.

you’re a learner, you’re a continuing learner, you’re bringing a wealth of experience and data that may serve them and on the identical time that you just’re continuously studying, that you’re proper, that you just’re on the sting of issues with them. And so I believe the stumbling block typically with that 55 12 months outdated and 35 12 months outdated

is the notion of outdatedness, proper? And so as an alternative, form of considering of that is what I’m bringing to the desk, that is what I can supply. And by the best way, I’m up to the mark, I’m updated, I see the alternatives inside this group that my experience might actually create totally different alternatives for. ⁓

, innovation, technique, all of these issues. So I believe on some degree we’ve acquired to speak a way of, what am I making an attempt to say? Like contemporary-ness? I don’t assume that’s a phrase.

Carl DuPont (20:01)
Effectively,

I believe that’s a extremely good approach into that dialog, Alexa. And I’m fascinated about making IT very legible by means of credentialing. Micro credentialing is the time period that’s being bandied about now. You possibly can take a Google course at no cost and get a credential in a day and have a stamp mark.

Alexa Chilcutt (20:13)
Hmm.

Renata Bernarde (20:15)
Mm-hmm.

Carl DuPont (20:24)
on that credential that’s this 12 months. So you will have one thing that reveals the agility that Alex was speaking about and you may make that legible to whosoever studying IT as nicely. So I’m at all times encouraging my purchasers to go the place their pursuits are, discover some form of small credential. No, you don’t want to return to highschool and get one other diploma, however spend a day displaying that you’re able to taking your abilities and translating them into one thing that’s modern.

Alexa Chilcutt (20:54)
And I imply that that’s a per and we had been all speaking about this earlier than we actually began recording however I imply take into consideration immediately and Carl and I are each in government training at Johns Hopkins and we’ve got these mid and senior degree leaders that fly from all around the world to come back to those programs as a result of they’re continuously making an attempt to up degree just a bit bit proper however I imply the subject of the day clearly is AI.

Renata Bernarde (20:54)
Mm.

Alexa Chilcutt (21:19)
and their government training programs in AI. And so are you, , are you form of up to the mark with that? Are you comfy with, hey, IT’s about effectivity, IT’s about maximizing my output and affect. And in order that’s, imply, proper now, that’s form of the subject of the day.

Renata Bernarde (21:41)
And I’m going so as to add one thing to what you mentioned that I believe is de facto essential since you in all probability work with very senior purchasers as nicely. And after I do and I ask them to do micro credentials and find out about AI and find out about no matter IT is that they should be taught, I inform them, what?

to your government presence, you don’t truly have to announce to the world that you just’ve executed all of this stuff. What you might want to do is to showcase that this stuff. And there’s a distinction there. I’ve purchasers, I’ve one proper now that I’m considering of. She’s actually senior, very a lot an knowledgeable in her space and in her area. And she or he has…

Alexa Chilcutt (22:11)
Mm-hmm.

Carl DuPont (22:11)
Yeah

Renata Bernarde (22:23)
uploaded all of her certificates into her LinkedIn and made IT so kind of apparent that IT virtually form of diminishes her government presence by her have to showcase IT. And I’ve been asking her to please put that down. And as an alternative of doing that, why don’t you write an article?

Alexa Chilcutt (22:31)
and

Renata Bernarde (22:41)
a robust article about there’s an article written about ⁓ AI this week, which made me like, OK, I want to speak about AI. So I instructed you earlier than we began recording that I interviewed anyone to handle.

Alexa Chilcutt (22:41)
Mmm!

Renata Bernarde (22:55)
this problem and IT was IT was printed on LinkedIn. IT wasn’t printed on the Wall Road Journal. IT wasn’t printed on Forbes or Fortune. IT was printed on LinkedIn. So you may then showcase your experience or the truth that you’re studying. know, should you don’t have the experience that you would be able to say as an government, I really feel the necessity to to find out about AI and I’ve executed these three programs. This is the reason I believe you must do them, too. You don’t must be an knowledgeable. You simply want to indicate that you just’ve executed IT and educate individuals.

Alexa Chilcutt (23:03)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (23:24)
your friends, your community as to why, that reveals us energetic presence, not you saying that you just’ve executed the certification.

Alexa Chilcutt (23:29)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Carl DuPont (23:33)
Sure, I believe that’s fantastically mentioned and fantastically defined. IT’s not government bulletins, IT’s government presence. that may be executed in silence.

Renata Bernarde (23:43)
⁓ sure, present

them. is one other sort of, imply, that kind of alienation we really feel from being older is one factor. There’s one other one that’s from you having a cultural dissonance with the individuals which can be interviewing you. Proper. So I felt that lots after I moved to Australia.

Like Brazil is such a distinct tradition, , when IT involves, we’re so casual. I bear in mind in my first job being requested to prepare issues, recordsdata alphabetically, and I organized all of them by first names and no one might work out, like, what have you ever executed? You haven’t organized them. And I’m like, sure, I’ve.

Alexa Chilcutt (24:27)
I IT so humorous.

Carl DuPont (24:32)
No.

Renata Bernarde (24:32)
You

ask me that once more and I’d in all probability arrange that by your nicknames. imply, have a look at the Brazilian soccer group. You have a look at the again, IT’s everybody’s nicknames, proper? So we’re very informal in the best way that we tackle individuals and really flat. So typically there’s that cultural dissonance, even whenever you transfer from state to state in America or whenever you transfer nations or whenever you transfer industries or sectors, even you probably have a public servant going into company, IT simply doesn’t sound correct. , there’s like a, a

approach that you just categorical your self that wants the narrative wants to vary however how do you coach folks that have skilled that and need to tackle IT?

Carl DuPont (25:13)
take into consideration this as code switching and I take into consideration figuring out the goal language or goal tradition. So there are only a few locations on the world the place individuals solely communicate one language or one dialect. In most locations the place the borders are imagined, there’s so many cultures which can be there and you’ll transfer by means of one.

or the opposite. And even whenever you have a look at linguistics, ⁓ they establish in

We find out about dialect, however in addition they establish an idiolect. All of us have a person approach of talking, after which we’ve acquired to make ourselves understood wherever we’re going. One of many methods to know what the goal language is or what the goal tradition is, is by doing some research and by listening and studying. We retain our adaptability all through our complete lives as human beings. Typically we don’t make the most of IT as a lot as we are able to.

However that adaptability is de facto our biggest power and IT permits for that connection piece that I used to be mentioning earlier. So I encourage purchasers to consider that focus on and to do the work after which begin doing the interpretation in order that your greatest self can shine by means of. As a result of should you don’t communicate the language and also you form of lower your self off, then we don’t get to know you and we are able to’t worth you.

in the best way that we want to.

Renata Bernarde (26:49)
I like that code switching definition in your ebook. A lot simpler than the one I’ve been utilizing. I exploit Bertrand Russell’s 4 narrative kinds and the names are actually troublesome. And that concept of the cultural narrative type the place you need to be in that clique.

Carl DuPont (27:05)
Sure.

Renata Bernarde (27:11)
the place let’s say should you’re a public servant and also you’re speaking to a public servant and you employ all this kind of authorities type wording that no one within the company world would perceive and then you definitely attempt to translate that in your resume whenever you’re on the lookout for let’s say a consulting function and nothing sounds, all the things sounds bizarre. You don’t have that, jargon, the brand new jargon. So code switching, I like that time period.

Carl DuPont (27:18)
and

Yeah.

Yeah, I believe that there’s a lot of precedent for that. In all of our lives, there’s precedent for IT. And so we are able to make the most of that as a power. How I communicate at dwelling with my household versus how I communicate at work.

Renata Bernarde (27:50)
Sure.

Carl DuPont (27:51)
versus how I communicate after I’m in a brand new surroundings and I don’t know what’s occurring first. I hear first after which I decide what IT is. So I believe that that may be a very underutilized ability that all of us have.

Renata Bernarde (28:06)
That’s nice. And, and Alexa, you each describe authenticity ⁓ in a really sensible approach. And I would like individuals to know that code switching isn’t actually kind of taking the authenticity out of you. IT’s you adapting what you need to say to your viewers. IT’s a extremely being taking good care of that viewers, understanding them, being empathetic with them. So the place do your professionals most frequently

Alexa Chilcutt (28:22)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (28:33)
confuse authenticity with, , saying all the things, displaying all the things and, , code switching or placing on a masks. Do you will have that downside together with your purchasers?

Alexa Chilcutt (28:46)
, once we started educating government presence, that was actually a sticking level for lots of people as a result of as soon as once more, the outdated concept of government presence. And imagine me, when Carl and I started educating this, what, like 4 years in the past? I don’t even know now anymore.

We needed to do analysis on IT. I imply, we had not taught government presence. We had taught public talking for professionals and enterprise communication and all of this stuff. And so we actually had been digging into IT on the identical time.

Carl DuPont (29:09)
Uh-huh.

Alexa Chilcutt (29:23)
And other people at all times acquired caught on authenticity. So what we mentioned was, , IT’s not prescriptive. We’re not telling you that you might want to look a sure approach, act a sure approach, sound a sure approach, proper? You might be you. And IT actually is, Carl mentioned this at the start, uncovering what your values are, what your strengths are, what you carry to the desk and being comfy with your self. One of many issues that I like about a few of the

analysis that we base our concept of government presence round one of many traits is confidence, proper? Projected confidence. We’ve at all times considered government presence as projecting confidence. However the best way that they outlined IT primarily based on their analysis was that IT was a way of self.

assuredness, know, a way of self, ⁓ being you possibly can be quiet and introverted and nonetheless be assured. And so once we take into consideration you don’t should be an extrovert, you could be an introvert. You possibly can nonetheless mission confidence. You possibly can have grace underneath hearth. You could be anyone who walks right into a room and sits comfortably and nonetheless instructions the house. And so IT was wrestling with the we’re not making an attempt to make you

placed on something. As a result of should you

Renata Bernarde (30:49)
Yeah.

Alexa Chilcutt (30:50)
put one thing on and IT’s not you, then you may’t preserve IT. And the most important factor we find out about government presence is IT’s not nearly first impressions. IT’s not nearly these preliminary impressions or brief time period impressions. Actually, half of the traits concerned in government presence are impressions over time. Issues like interpersonal integrity. Do individuals belief that you’re authentically real in your relationships? That, proper, you’re not…

Renata Bernarde (30:59)
Mm.

Alexa Chilcutt (31:20)
making an attempt to get to know them and the following day you overlook their identify. So can they belief you? Do you will have the power to construct rapport? ⁓ Values in motion are one of many traits. Effectively, that’s over time, proper? So what sort of values do you say as a frontrunner you will have after which do individuals see you demonstrating that over time? Experience and data, observe by means of. So…

IT’s we get so confused as a result of we predict we’re having to place IT on when IT’s actually about enacting IT and you’ll’t enact IT should you don’t have a stable basis. All proper, that was a really lengthy reply.

Renata Bernarde (31:57)
I like all the things about what you mentioned.

No, no, IT’s an amazing reply. And that incremental ⁓ improvement of your fame, of your private model, , I don’t know should you hate or love that phrase, however , for lack of a greater phrase, that’s what will ⁓ maintain you prime of thoughts and make you stick in individuals’s consciousness in the event that they want anyone.

Alexa Chilcutt (32:22)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (32:27)
to handle a selected downside and I would like them to think about you. That’s what I at all times assume once we’re growing that kind of idea with my purchasers, which results in a sustainable profession. If individuals consider you to your experience and your presence and the best way that you just carry a sure sort of vitality, you received’t try this ⁓ instantaneously. IT must be developed over time.

Having mentioned that, I’ve a private wrestle that I need to share with you. ⁓ And that form of comes from my very own lived expertise. , I spent a while within the Silicon Valley after I was younger, as a result of my dad labored there. And I form of simply adopted that type of dressing. So mainly, I used to be a tropical model of Steve Jobs. I used to decorate with Tiva, Tiva sandals, Bermuda’s.

Carl DuPont (33:13)
Thanks

Alexa Chilcutt (33:18)
you

Renata Bernarde (33:19)
and really free t-shirts. And I had my very own enterprise. IT was my first enterprise. And I wished my enterprise to succeed. And IT wasn’t till I began dressing higher that I began succeeding. I’ll be sincere with you. There was a little bit of make-up concerned. was higher footwear and a greater approach of presenting myself. After which a few years later, after I was educating that to… ⁓

college college students on the lookout for graduate roles that had been from blue collar backgrounds, indigenous backgrounds right here in Australia, and so they had been actually reluctant to placed on a swimsuit. mentioned, nicely, should you had been doing drugs and also you you mentioned to your lecturers that you just didn’t need to put on scrubs, you wouldn’t have the ability to go to hospital. If you wish to be a Buddhist monk and also you don’t need to put on the apparel of a Buddhist monk, you wouldn’t have the ability to be part of them. So I form of.

Alexa Chilcutt (33:54)
Yeah.

Renata Bernarde (34:12)
I of understood a lot later what wanted to occur there. And I puzzled what you need, what it’s a must to say about that, as a result of that’s a private wrestle of mine.

Alexa Chilcutt (34:22)
look I like speaking about look however whenever you’re teaching anyone you actually have to attend for them to open that door. what I imply? As a result of IT’s such a delicate subject to lots of people ⁓ however similar to you mentioned IT’s initially primarily based on the tradition. You’re proper the best way that you just’re gonna go dressed for a

Renata Bernarde (34:31)
Mm-hmm. Sure.

Alexa Chilcutt (34:49)
, Road job is just not what you’re going to go searching like whenever you go to Apple, , the campus. IT’s a really totally different factor.

I do imagine in fascinated about the place am I, what’s that tradition, what are the expectations, and if I desire a function, that subsequent degree function, nicely what do individuals in that function appear to be? I imply IT’s that outdated adage of costume for the job that you really want, not for the job that you’ve, and IT does matter. , so I believe there are issues that we’ve got to…

You possibly can have your personal type should you’re anyone who likes to put on shade, you, imply, completely embrace your personal type, but in addition have IT in steadiness with what the expectations are for somebody within the function that you just want to have. Carl, I do know you had been gonna say one thing.

Carl DuPont (35:43)
I used to be, there’s analysis from a ⁓ research in 2020 about apparel and IT factors to the truth that nonconformity at occasions you’re mentioning Silicon Valley, ⁓ that may be an additional advantage specifically realms. So if you wish to present charisma and that’s your

Alexa Chilcutt (36:05)
Mm.

Carl DuPont (36:12)
goal, then go forward and discover what nonconformity is. If you wish to present what Alexa was speaking about, is knowing the tradition, being part of the tradition, then you can even select to enact that together with your apparel. I come from a background of the stage and I like placing on a dressing up. For me,

Renata Bernarde (36:38)
Yeah.

Carl DuPont (36:39)
There’s nothing extra releasing. Give me a wig, give me a gown, give me a crown. And now I… Sure, IT’s my costume for immediately. That is my enterprise costume. So as a result of then you may play. Once we notice that as Alexa at all times brings this quote, all of the world’s a stage. And we notice that it is a costume whether or not

Renata Bernarde (36:45)
Carl, the place’s your costume? Why aren’t you dressed up immediately? Significantly?

Alexa Chilcutt (36:48)
I desire a crown, however go forward.

Renata Bernarde (36:56)
Yeah.

Carl DuPont (37:08)
IT comes from our household tradition or the place IT comes from company tradition. IT’s a dressing up it doesn’t matter what, as a result of I believe even on this age in 22 and 6, I believe we’re all nonetheless born bare. Is that appropriate? So it doesn’t matter what, IT’s a dressing up and I embrace that as a technique to begin enjoying, to really feel the character. And should you use that, all of the world’s a stage, I believe IT makes IT a little bit simpler.

Alexa Chilcutt (37:21)
assume so, just about.

Renata Bernarde (37:24)
Thank

Carl DuPont (37:38)
to search out the suitable costume for the suitable function.

Alexa Chilcutt (37:38)
Hmm.

Renata Bernarde (37:42)
Yeah, I like that. I believe that so what I do and I’d love so that you can kind of critique me should you kind of have points with IT. If a shopper has one thing that they’re bringing right into a room and a dialog, chilly dialog the place their experience is unknown and they should showcase their experience with a purpose to get a job or a promotion or no matter. If they’re.

If they’ve one thing totally different from the expectation, what I inform them to do and I prepare them to do is to make that a part of their narrative. Deliver the elephant into the room with them and tackle that. I don’t need them to stroll out of the room and have individuals speaking about them with out them within the room. need that, , so yesterday I used to be telling a shopper of mine a few scholar.

Alexa Chilcutt (38:22)
That’s the loop.

Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (38:37)
Again within the day after I nonetheless labored with graduates that used to have very lovely however heavy make-up, Indian make-up. So, and I, this was again in 2010 and again then, , I assumed that that might be a difficulty to get her a job and she or he was so good and I did speak to her about IT and she or he mentioned, no, that is my heritage. need to, I need to, , use this, this make-up in my interviews. And I mentioned, nicely, then.

Let’s incorporate that into your introduction. Let’s incorporate that into your dialog. The elephant is within the room and you might want to make them do not forget that they’ve a variety and inclusion coverage, that they need totally different individuals of their groups and never everyone appears to be like the identical at a consulting firm. She acquired the job. She’s now working within the UK in a extremely excessive profile function in a giant ⁓

Alexa Chilcutt (39:04)
Personal IT.

Mm-hmm.

me.

Renata Bernarde (39:32)
consulting group. I’m so happy with her that she didn’t, , took my recommendation and as an alternative I truly needed to adapt what I used to be telling her to do and IT labored. So since then I’ve been doing that with my purchasers on the spectrum, with my purchasers on, , which have, , my queer purchasers, all the issues which can be totally different are introduced into the narrative.

Alexa Chilcutt (39:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Carl DuPont (39:58)
I take into consideration that I’ve encountered what this example that you just’re speaking about in many various methods, with the intersectionality of my id after which all of what I carry. And IT took me so lengthy to comprehend that in the event that they didn’t need me there, I didn’t wanna be there.

Renata Bernarde (40:06)
Mm-hmm.

Sure, completely.

Carl DuPont (40:26)
And so whenever you carry your full self, similar to this shopper that you just’re speaking, you actually are underlining the truth that you’re interviewing them as nicely. Are they actually going to have the option, is that this actually a spot that may see worth?

can maintain worth, could be true to their phrase, can work with an individual from a distinct background. As a result of if IT’s not, then that may finally be a really uncomfortable work surroundings and no one’s gonna be pleased as nicely. And IT’ll be their loss as a result of as you mentioned, this was a superb shopper and a superb individual. In order that took me so lengthy to know. IT took numerous rejection and harm and IT has actually began clicking.

Alexa Chilcutt (40:57)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (41:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Carl DuPont (41:14)
and IT’s made me simply thrilled for the areas the place I’m welcomed and I embraced and I can do my greatest work in that approach.

Alexa Chilcutt (41:23)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (41:24)
Superior. Carl, I’d like to ask you about voice as nicely, as a result of I’m so, so on this and I do know nothing. So I actually need to know ⁓ extra. What do you assume are the frequent voice points that get misinterpret as low confidence in interviews? ⁓

Alexa Chilcutt (41:45)
Mm.

Renata Bernarde (41:46)
or a scarcity of government presence due to voice or tone or accent. I’d love to listen to your views on that.

Carl DuPont (41:54)
Effectively, after I consider one thing that I need to speak about with voice, one factor that at all times involves thoughts is individuals who speak monotone and who speak in a run-on sentence with none form of grammar and simply go on and ⁓ use numerous filler phrases. So IT’s the tone, IT’s the pitch. We’re a species of storytellers.

Renata Bernarde (42:11)
Yeah.

Carl DuPont (42:21)
And one of many issues I ask my purchasers to do is at any time when I catch somebody simply getting up there talking, and these are essentially the most good individuals, proper? We work with engineers, we work with scientists, Johns Hopkins is a analysis college. So somebody will likely be up there speaking about one thing, their life altering, world saving analysis, and so they’ll discuss IT similar to this in a monotone. And I’m like, no, no, this work is just too essential.

It’s a must to inform a narrative and picture that you’re telling this story to a four-year-old. How would you speak about IT? Now, after all, we let the pendulum swing all the best way over there after which we titrate to get IT to the place IT’s applicable for an interview or a presentation at a convention. However IT’s acquired to be in regards to the story with the voice. And I assure that one who is talking with out taking a breath

that’s a giant one, Renato. Folks rise up there and assume they don’t should breathe anymore. Or somebody that’s talking with out punctuation, they overlook about their intervals and commas. If you happen to put that very same individual in a room the place they’re studying a narrative to a four-year-old or telling a narrative to their associates, they’re going to be animated and so they’re going to have the ability to use the three that I speak about usually, which might be pitch, quantity, and rhythm.

They’re going to have the ability to implement these. And so I like to assist individuals simply see, ⁓ these are the strengths that you have already got. That is the way you talk when you find yourself actually keen about one thing and also you need to get a message throughout. What should you took these abilities and put that right here within the company surroundings? After which my job as a coach is to make IT secure for them to do this as a result of oftentimes there’s some underlying sense of tension.

that’s stopping them from having the total vary of expression.

Renata Bernarde (44:23)
Sure, sure. And ⁓ after which, and by the best way, , and in case you’re fearful, as a result of typically I speak to individuals and so they like, ⁓ not everyone who’s on the spectrum ought to, ⁓ , disclose that in an interview. That could be a dialog that many individuals have with me if they arrive for a one hour session and so they need to know, ought to I disclose? IT normally is that if they can’t repair that.

if their, , autism is such the place their monotone can’t be mounted. So then we work on how we’re going to handle that within the interview and personal our narrative and the best way that we current. So I bear in mind with one shopper, IT was about, OK, what is going to make you extra comfy? if I might carry.

my visible aids, my maps and my initiatives. Sure, carry IT. Allow them to know that you just want that. then I imply, have CEOs on the spectrum which have labored with me. know, and yeah, and I’m all of that. And, , individuals with some kind of incapacity as nicely and a few kind of, .

Carl DuPont (45:17)
Completely.

Alexa Chilcutt (45:26)
In fact. They’re good.

Renata Bernarde (45:37)
issues which can be exterior of the normative kind of government presence, ⁓ kind of ⁓ mind-set. And I form of assume that that’s essential for individuals to know that should you inform me you’re on the spectrum, however we are able to handle with out letting individuals know and also you don’t really feel comfy letting individuals know, yeah, let’s work with that.

Alexa Chilcutt (45:42)
Bye.

Renata Bernarde (46:01)
But when we can not, then that’s how we kind of workshop totally different concepts. The opposite factor that I believe is attention-grabbing and I’m pleased for both of you to handle is the truth that you may inform I’m a girl and I speak like nonstop. I can speak underwater. Like I’ve to essentially tempo myself, particularly if I’m in an interview, to not waffle an excessive amount of and to not say too many phrases and to not go on and on and on and on. That’s one other

signal of, I imply, IT can signify nervousness, anxiousness, a little bit of stress. ⁓ For me, IT’s pleasure as a result of I like speaking to you each. So, , I form of have a tendency to speak greater than I ought to. Do you kind of have a recipe to repair me? As a result of I’d love that.

Carl DuPont (46:38)
Mm-hmm.

Alexa Chilcutt (46:52)
Okay.

Renata Bernarde (46:52)
I do

that I have to cease speaking you guys

Alexa Chilcutt (46:55)
No, I imply, assume a part of IT is at all times preparation, which you’ve executed, proper? We form of have a, right here’s form of some questions we’re going to handle and , I believe you might be good at studying the room and also you may, I believe all of us at totally different occasions on this podcast had been like, wow, I simply mentioned a mouthful. imply, so. ⁓

assume that’s simply regular on some degree. However whenever you’re in areas, one of many issues that I inform purchasers is should you’re, let’s say, in an interview and also you’re fearful about operating on and on, that perhaps one of many questions is gonna be why do you imagine that you just’re a great match for this place? You will have all of this stuff that you just wanna speak about.

In your preparation, it is a trick that Carl and I realized from one other ebook, however we’ve carried out IT and we’ve coached IT to everyone else and everyone, like, IT’s a factor. As a result of IT actually is the rule of three. If you happen to can…

Do preparation the place you say, nicely, know, there are three, there are three points about my expertise that straight relate to this place. You’re giving your self a framework for that reply. There’s a starting and there’s an finish. One, two, three. You’re additionally speaking to the opposite individual that you just’re an organized thinker.

So routinely at the start of answering that query, , and we additionally train that nonverbal communication can also be within the silence.

So if somebody asks you a query in an interview or perhaps on the finish of a presentation, you’ve acquired an amazing job. It’s a must to rise up and provides displays. Everyone is at all times afraid of these questions on the finish. Have somebody ask the query, elevate your eyebrows.

rely to at least one or two, three in your head, after which reply. Effectively, you there are 3 ways I’d try this. ⁓ However that form of rule of three offers some group and, like I mentioned, a cutoff place.

Carl DuPont (49:01)
And one of many issues that’s robust with the cutoff place is being okay not saying all the things . As a result of the purchasers typically are like, nicely, I’ve this factor to say and this factor to say and if I decelerate, they’ll lower me off. And I say, what’s the worst that would occur? If you happen to say three issues like Alexa was speaking about.

Alexa Chilcutt (49:09)
Mm.

Carl DuPont (49:29)
and also you don’t say six issues, what’s the worst that would occur? And so exploring that to permit the mind and the physique to really feel a way of security with saying three issues after which stopping speaking is a crucial a part of embodying that.

Renata Bernarde (49:48)
I like that. I like that. And I’m responsible of that. I have to kind of work on that with my therapist or one thing. And I can see that being one thing that for an anxious job seeker, know, anyone who actually, actually wants a job, they might assume that extra is extra when actually extra is much less, proper?

Carl DuPont (50:10)
Mm-hmm.

Renata Bernarde (50:10)
as a result of

then you definitely don’t have an anchor to carry on to as anyone who must decide to do not forget that individual by as a result of that individual kind of pulverized you with so many concepts that IT’s arduous so that you can bear in mind them.

Alexa Chilcutt (50:21)
for me.

Carl DuPont (50:26)
Mm-hmm.

Alexa Chilcutt (50:26)
Yeah,

and the three is a reminiscence machine. So whenever you’re giving a speech, whenever you’re giving a presentation, you probably have three details, should you’re opening a gathering and also you say, we’re going to do three issues immediately, we’re going to debate this new coverage, we’re going to decide about such and such, and we’re going to determine subsequent steps. Individuals are extra engaged as a result of they really feel like there’s a roadmap. And

Renata Bernarde (50:30)
Mmm.

Alexa Chilcutt (50:55)
As a result of they’re engaged and there’s a roadmap, they’re gonna observe you extra. They’re not gonna tune out and so they’re gonna take away extra. So such as you mentioned, as an alternative of the six, 10, 12 issues, having three offers you that anchor, precisely what you mentioned, and IT goes to assist that listener bear in mind extra. So we name IT cherry decide. Take into consideration, I’ve this a lot Information I actually wanna share.

Renata Bernarde (51:03)
Yeah.

Alexa Chilcutt (51:24)
But when I had been to boil IT all the way down to an important issues or the issues that I would like individuals to stroll away with, what would these three issues be?

Renata Bernarde (51:33)
Precisely, that sounds fairly good. And ⁓ I need to end off with this query for you, as a result of one of many simple methods to doubtlessly diagnose anyone as not having the chief presence that they should obtain their objectives is after they come to us and they’re technically good, excellent at what they do. They need to be a straightforward decide for an interview or for a remaining supply.

however they maintain listening to, you’re not senior sufficient. You don’t have that proper expertise that we had been anticipating. And I’m not saying that each time this occurs, IT is about government presence, however that’s form of ⁓ one thing that kind of is a proxy, can act as a proxy. After which you may interrogate a little bit bit extra to search out out if that’s the case. I would like you to inform us a time whenever you’ve labored with a candidate that had that state of affairs and what occurred

Alexa Chilcutt (52:06)
Hmm.

Renata Bernarde (52:33)
that they had been capable of repair IT.

Alexa Chilcutt (52:37)
Okay, off the bat, I can consider, I used to be simply having this dialog with another person. I’m working with a number of individuals in the meanwhile from one giant company after which simply another purchasers form of by means of Johns Hopkins. And so they’re all…

form of would match into that class on some, lots of them would, however they’ve lots of the identical points. And so I’m going from one individual to the following and I’m like, I simply heard this, proper? And so I’ll inform you two. Primary is that they have been given a seat at tables at conferences with bigger teams of executives or leaders, and so they’re not comfy sharing their concepts. They self-censor themselves.

Effectively, another individuals are speaking and I don’t know if I ought to actually say this factor and may I take up house? And these are good individuals. So IT’s primary, IT’s sharing, feeling comfy utilizing your voice and sharing these concepts. Quantity two, IT’s about self advocacy and telling your story. And so we frequently speak about you’re doing fabulous work.

Renata Bernarde (53:30)
you

Alexa Chilcutt (53:51)
however everyone else is so busy fascinated about their very own work. IT’s not that they’re not making an attempt to acknowledge yours, however you will have to have the ability to inform the story. And so whenever you’re getting a mission replace in a gathering, inform a little bit bit extra of the story.

, nicely, as a result of I had beforehand labored on this different mission, I’m bringing a few of that experience into this and IT’s informing me on this approach. IT doesn’t should be a novel, proper? can, Carl likes to say, IT doesn’t should be a novel, IT could be a film. So, doesn’t should be a complete lengthy factor, however you will have to have the ability to inform your story and it’s a must to take into consideration who’re the individuals which can be gonna be in that room the place these selections are being made? And am I creating the impressions about my chief?

by means of how I speak about my work and the way I discuss myself when I’ve these alternatives. So these are these are the 2 issues. Carl.

Renata Bernarde (54:44)
love that. Yeah.

Carl DuPont (54:47)
And

I encourage individuals to discover their inside monologue. What are you saying to your self in these situations? And we had been talking about confidence a little bit earlier. IT’s one thing that may be a apply. And Alexa used the phrase that we enact.

So confidence could be one thing that you just construct. IT’s a muscle, similar to consideration, similar to biceps. So begin to hearken to that inside voice. Is IT cheering you on? And if IT’s not, then that’s a possibility so that you can have government presence. Within the boardroom, that’s up right here. As a result of IT begins right here, IT begins right here. Can you discover small issues that you would be able to say, bravo, Carl, you probably did that actually nicely?

after which let that translate and begin to radiate by means of all the things that you just do and I assure others will begin to discover IT as nicely.

Renata Bernarde (55:47)
Carl, simply because only a few individuals watch this on YouTube, I’ve not been capable of crack the code on YouTube but. So IT’s embarrassing how few individuals, you touched your mind and also you touched your coronary heart. And I would like you to elucidate which one comes first so that folks which can be listening on Spotify can determine that out.

Carl DuPont (55:59)
Sure.

nicely, simply then I touched my mind first earlier than I touched my coronary heart. I’m actually within the neuroscience of management, and that’s my present obsession, if you’ll.

and the way our mind is designed to get us transferring, to maintain us secure, and the way IT influences and connects with and talks to the physique on this this mobile degree. IT’s actually, actually fascinating and will in all probability be a complete different podcast. IT’s so linked. Our ideas aren’t simply summary. They’re truly

part of our physique and so they dwell within the physique and so they dwell within the muscle tissue and so they dwell within the sinews and so they dwell within the fascia. So IT actually is essential to begin to analyze what’s occurring and I’m touching my mind once more and the way that influences how you are feeling and now I’m touching my coronary heart for all of you in Spotify land.

Renata Bernarde (57:18)
Okay. All proper. Look, Alexa and Carl, I really feel like I’ve recognized you endlessly. I don’t know. I’ve just like the sense of kinship with each of you. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of me and my listeners on the Job Looking Podcast. You’re at all times welcome to come back again you probably have any extra books, should you begin growing extra concepts about, , the neuroscience of management. I’d love to listen to from you. And yeah, you’re now.

Alexa Chilcutt (57:18)
you

Carl DuPont (57:25)
You

Renata Bernarde (57:46)
associates of the pod so come again anytime. Do you will have any remaining ideas issues that you really want individuals to know or locations the place they’ll discover you allow them to know now and I’ll put hyperlinks under

Alexa Chilcutt (57:58)
Effectively, I believe we encourage individuals to attach with us on LinkedIn. We’re each very responsive and submit numerous, , form of articles and ideas and issues like that. After which we even have an internet site, thepresenceprinciple.com. So, and we are going to ship you the hyperlink. You’ll have the hyperlink to the ebook and all the nice issues.

Renata Bernarde (58:18)
the hyperlink.

Carl DuPont (58:20)
Yeah, and should you join with me on LinkedIn, simply DM me voice and I’ll ship you a little bit PDF that I name ideas, tips and fact to assist let your voice resonate all through the world.

Renata Bernarde (58:33)
beautiful. Effectively, thanks a lot.

Alexa Chilcutt (58:37)
Thanks.